UB BBJ included as Rake?

[SharkSandwich]

Dude - rake is rake. The rake in the Rake column of the reports should equal the total rake taken out of all pots that you won.
In my eyes, the Rake column should list the whole rake taken out of all pots I won in a session, period. If this is not how it's supposed to be, then this is very big news to me!

No. See, it doesn't work at all like that. Not in HEM. Not on the sites. Can someone back me up on this so we can move on?

That's why you're getting discrepencies in your own figures. The figures aren't random.
Whereas when I'm working it out I can get it down to the cent, but (incorrectly) including JP rake.

As I said earlier the formula is:
Total rake in a hand / everyone who contributed to the pot (including both blinds 100%). And you only get that portion assigned to you if you personally contributed. Hence contributed.

It's nowhere near as simple as "my pot got raked $x, so I get back 30% of $x". Go check a mini-session where you didn't win a single pot. Guarantee you you will have non-zero rake (except if no hand saw a flop where you put money in the pot).

Rakeback is nothing more than the part of rake assigned to you (via contributed or dealt methods) * 0.30.

HEM is working it out correctly. They just need to add a different column for JP contribution (hell, it would be better if everyone stopped calling it rake) or at the very least just ignoring it from rake.

[DeepBlue]

Ha, I see. I was right on our discrepancy - you are talking about rake paid for the purposes of rakeback calculation, not ACTUAL rake paid.

I am talking about ACTUAL RAKE in terms of actual rake paid as deducted from the pots won.

The rake column in the reports should be reporting how much rake was taken out of all pots player won total, plain and simple. That is the real figure of how much rake the user paid.

The figure you mention is an intermediary used only for rakeback calculation.

So if what you're saying is true, that the Rake column will list a value even if I lost every hand, then that IS a problem with HEM - because for purposes of analysis, we need to know the REAL amount of rake that was deducted from the pots we won. I am surprised this is how it is, but if it is like you say, this must be the case (the Rake column is showing the intermediate rake value that is to be used for rakeback calculation).

So my original issue still stands - the Rake column should be fixed to list the total of Rake paid in pots the player selected has won. Perhaps there should be a separate column for Adjusted Rake, such as you describe, so people can match it up to their rakeback provider's reports? But for normal anaylsis (such as how much rake we're paying per 100 hands, whether we're beating the rake), we need to know the REAL amount of rake paid.

[SharkSandwich]

Yeah we obviously were talking about two different things.

I don't personally see the purpose of knowing the rake taken in pots you won though? Why would we need this?

The Rake stat as is (when working correctly without the JPR) is superuseful as it allows us, and the software, to work out our rakeback. Which then allows us to see our real total profit, which can be used on the graphs and stuff.

How much my won pots have been raked just seems completely irrelevant to me. Interesting perhaps, but not at all useful.

Anyway I guess we got it sorted out, and I can now confirm more than ever that JP rake has been included. When even some of the HEM people were saying it wasn't.

[DeepBlue]

Can anyone else chime in if this was intended behavior, that the Rake figure is not actual rake paid but the calculated rake for purposes of rakeback?

As for your question, it kind of surprises me - it's like a business asking why they would keep track of business expenses like rent and supplies. It's important because it tells us how much rake /100 we pay for different game types and different styles we might play. Moreover, it tells us how much we're actually losing to the rake! Like maybe you had a bad day, but when you look, you see that you paid more than that in rake, so you know you were beating the game, but not the rake.

I don't see why someone would want to know an approximation of their rake paid when they can know the actual rake paid. The approximation is only used for rakeback, so I only need to see the right figure in the Rakeback column pertaining to that. Otherwise I want to know the absolute amount of rake taken from me.

[carr1]

Here and reporting for duty Cap'n.

LOL

But seriously, thank you for looking into this Shark. I'm super busy so not entirely sure of DeepBlue's issue but I'll take a guess: I don't think HEM calculates true rake taken out for us individually for any site... I may be wrong. I believe they do calculate our MGR and the BBJ should not be a part of this. I agree with DeepBlue that seeing our actual true rake paid would be a huge benefit. But once again, I don't believe HEM does this for any site. So the matter at hand is getting the BBJ rake put into a separate column and not included as overall rake!

[DeepBlue]

Yeah I guess I was just naive about this for the past 4 years! (Also I suppose in reality it wouldn't matter too much if it's about the same anway, but the fact that here it includes BBJ rake was what made me notice, so at the end of the day, my problem truly is the same as Shark's, just that I wasn't expecting the Rake figure to be calculated as such in the first place, so it threw me off.)

I wonder if PT also calculates Rake as such, and doesn't give the raw figure from the HH files? Maybe I'll trial it sometime to see.

[carr1]

OK, now that we've got that out of the way it's time HEM fixed this.

DeepBlue:
I share your frustration that we can't have all the data we want. However, the BBJ issue has been the cause of frustration for a lot of us for a long time. This is what we want fixed at the moment. I'd like to see true rake too, but one thing at a time right?

In the mean time I suggest:
1) Look at the rake comparison at pokertableratings. Go to Tools>Site Rake Analysis. You can see the BBJ drop has a huge effect on total rake paid. BBJ rake is included in these figures- I emailed them to make sure.
2) Each site publishes its own rake chart- compare these.
3) In HEM you can use filters to calculate the BBJ rake you paid. Under sessions, filter won hand=true and Final pot size in BBs is bigger than (input the amount of big blinds that triggers at least a .25 pot at your stakes. At .50/1 limit this is 10bbs. BTW this is another error is HEM. It is big blinds but they have it labeled as big bets). This will give you the number of hands that you paid an extra 50 cents on. Over 1000's of hands you may be shocked how much extra you pay.
4) Like I said before you can play a few thousand hands at different sites and compare actual winrates. Make sure to take into account rakeback + other incentives. I'd be VERY surprised if you weren't doing better at Full Tilt at .50/1 limit than AP/UB. IMO the only thing that could make you come out better at AP/UB is if you hit enough table shares to make up for the extra rake.

[DeepBlue]

Yeah I definitely agree, if that's how rake is anyway, might as well fix it "as is" by getting rid of the jackpot component.

So that means right now the rake DOES include the jackpot, so when I do the filtering (which I was already doing, thanks anyway - I also picked up on the bb being mislabeled), that means that is part of the rake being reported. Darn, that means I am not as big a winner as I thought, since obviously I was considering jackpot rake to be a separate huge entity on top of the rake being reported (even if it did seem off). That sucks!

You're right, on FTP it probably would be better, but I refuse to play there anymore. I get spooked by the number of coolers I got there a year ago.

Guess I'll stick with NL again instead. Just hope the rake can still be fixed cause hopefully I will be at the NL $50 bad beat tables soon enough.

[olliepower]

Hi,

We have a fix prepared for this, but we need some beta testers for it. If anyone would like to test the new build that includes this fix please email

support@holdemmanager.com

In subject line include

Urgent Att: Morny in the subject

[morny]

The wrong email address was in the last post Ive changed it now, if you sent it to the last email address then please resend to the correct address