Preflop raise Pot size question
Results 1 to 5 of 5
  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    221

    Default Preflop raise Pot size question

    Hello NCEdge.

    I make a definition for Pot Limit Omaha, which shows the strength of the hand depending on the different size of the preflop raise.
    Here's a hand:

    PokerStars Hand #000899616974: Omaha Pot Limit ($100/$200 USD) - 2021/02/13 23:18:01 UTC
    Table 'PKDOM_IDNP_OMH89' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
    Seat 1: Z226EZ05 ($4832 in chips)
    Seat 3: JUNI772 ($3420 in chips)
    Seat 6: ION7TIGAFF ($3692 in chips)
    # {"gt":"PLO","tn":"PKDOM_IDNP_OMH89","tid":89,"pn": {"0":"Z226EZ05","2":"JUNI772","5":"ION7TIGAFF"},"p ids":{"0":938414038,"2":726904758,"5":167349235}," room":"Idnp"}
    Z226EZ05: posts the ante $20
    JUNI772: posts the ante $20
    ION7TIGAFF: posts the ante $20
    ION7TIGAFF: posts small blind $100
    Z226EZ05: posts big blind $200
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to Z226EZ05 [Ad 2d As Jh]
    JUNI772: calls $200
    ION7TIGAFF: calls $100
    Z226EZ05: raises $660 to $860
    JUNI772: folds
    ION7TIGAFF: folds
    Uncalled bet ($660) returned to Z226EZ05
    Z226EZ05 collected $640 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot $660 | Rake $20
    Seat 1: Z226EZ05 (big blind) collected ($640)
    Seat 3: JUNI772 (button) folded before Flop
    Seat 6: ION7TIGAFF (small blind) folded before Flop


    $860 is maximal possible raise there, but test show me this:



    81%?

    JUNI772: calls $200 on BU + ION7TIGAFF: calls $100 on SB + Z226EZ05 BB + 3x ante $20 = 660.

    So Z226EZ05 "Call" on BB + POT = 200 + 660 = 860. Why 81%?

    Am I wrong somewhere?

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    221

    Default

    Perhaps the reason for this behavior can be understood from these two hands, played by almost the same composition of 3 people:


    PokerStars Hand #002099546278: Omaha Pot Limit ($100/$200 USD) - 2021/02/10 16:04:18 UTC
    Table 'PKDOM_IDNP_OMH209' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
    Seat 3: OTP ($17204 in chips)
    Seat 4: GEDANG3344 ($9590 in chips)
    Seat 5: CUBACUBA ($4000 in chips)
    # {"gt":"PLO","tn":"PKDOM_IDNP_OMH209","tid":209,"pn ":{"2":"OTP","3":"GEDANG3344","4":"CUBACUBA"},"pid s":{"2":893796391,"3":115363904,"4":681588295},"ro om":"Idnp"}
    OTP: posts the ante $20
    GEDANG3344: posts the ante $20
    CUBACUBA: posts the ante $20
    GEDANG3344: posts small blind $100
    CUBACUBA: posts big blind $200
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    OTP: raises $560 to $760
    GEDANG3344: folds
    CUBACUBA: raises $1680 to $2440
    OTP: calls $1680
    *** FLOP *** [Ks 7s 2s]
    CUBACUBA: bets $1540 and is all-in
    OTP: folds
    Uncalled bet ($1540) returned to CUBACUBA
    CUBACUBA collected $4888 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot $5040 | Rake $152
    Board [Ks 7s 2s]
    Seat 3: OTP (button) folded on the Flop
    Seat 4: GEDANG3344 (small blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 5: CUBACUBA (big blind) collected ($4888)



    Test show 100% Pot Raise:





    PokerStars Hand #002099206276: Omaha Pot Limit ($100/$200 USD) - 2021/02/10 16:02:51 UTC
    Table 'PKDOM_IDNP_OMH209' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
    Seat 1: POKPED11 ($3133 in chips)
    Seat 3: OTP ($21337 in chips)
    Seat 5: CUBACUBA ($4000 in chips)
    Seat 6: HAPHAP1 ($7777 in chips)
    # {"gt":"PLO","tn":"PKDOM_IDNP_OMH209","tid":209,"pn ":{"0":"POKPED11","2":"OTP","4":"CUBACUBA","5":"HA PHAP1"},"pids":{"0":168113587,"2":893796391,"4":68 1588295,"5":281281807},"room":"Idnp"}
    POKPED11: posts the ante $20
    OTP: posts the ante $20
    CUBACUBA: posts the ante $20
    POKPED11: posts small blind $100
    OTP: posts big blind $200
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    CUBACUBA: calls $200
    POKPED11: calls $100
    OTP: raises $660 to $860
    CUBACUBA: calls $660
    POKPED11: calls $660
    *** FLOP *** [Kc Tc 7h]
    POKPED11: checks
    OTP: bets $1410
    CUBACUBA: folds
    POKPED11: calls $1410
    *** TURN *** [Kc Tc 7h] [Qh]
    POKPED11: checks
    OTP: bets $750
    POKPED11: raises $93 to $843 and is all-in
    OTP: calls $93
    *** RIVER *** [Kc Tc 7h Qh] [Jc]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    POKPED11 collected $6931 from pot
    POKPED11: shows [5c 5h 2c 6d]
    OTP: shows [Qd Kh Ks 9h]
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot $7146 | Rake $215
    Board [Kc Tc 7h Qh Jc]
    Seat 1: POKPED11 (small blind) showed [5c 5h 2c 6d] and won ($6931) with XZ
    Seat 3: OTP (big blind) showed [Qd Kh Ks 9h] and lost with XZ
    Seat 5: CUBACUBA (button) folded on the Flop
    Seat 6: HAPHAP1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)


    Test show 81%:




    Since a pot-sized raise is "Call" + (Call + Pot size before call) I suspect that maybe NC does not interpret the mandatory blinds bet (SB / BB) as "call"
    and the player's pot raise in these positions is considered wrong? At least in Seek, I have looked at more than 50 hands in a row with a definition that shows only 100% raise, and I never saw the position of SB or BB.

    NCEdge - can you check this, please?

    Ty.
    Last edited by FALOs; 02-15-2021 at 10:22 AM.

  3. #3
    Moderator NotecaddyEdge's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    1,433

    Default

    Hi FALOs,

    If you made the maximum raise size in a pot-limit game and NC is saying it's an 81% pot-sized raise, it seems to me that maybe there is a bug in the NC calculation. I have created a ticket for the developers to have a look at it. I'll update here once it's addressed.

    Thank you for reporting it.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    221

    Default

    Hi NCEdge,
    glad you're back!

    Since my messages sometimes look quite voluminous, because I post hand istory, etc., just in case I want to draw your attention to this, maybe you did not notice, but this significantly narrows the search for the cause of the problem :
    Since a pot-sized raise is "Call" + (Call + Pot size before call) I suspect that maybe NC does not interpret the mandatory blinds bet (SB / BB) as "call" and the player's pot raise in these positions is considered wrong?
    It looks like the problem is really only with the blinds (possible Post Dead also), and the program does not take into account that the bet has already been made.
    Last edited by FALOs; 02-23-2021 at 10:56 AM.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    221

    Default

    Hey, NCEdge,

    (possible Post Dead also)
    I've verified this - yes, the issue applies to Post Dead as well. In general, the problem can be described as follows:
    The formula for calculating the size of the raise in relation to the pot does not take into account the player's mandatory bet (Bllinds / Post Dead)


    Regarding Post Dead, this option is common in some HM-supported Asian game rooms.

    Some of them even don't have "Wait for BB", so such hands is norm for this rooms:

    PokerStars Hand #002720771846: Omaha Pot Limit ($200/$400 USD) - 2021/02/11 01:50:47 UTC
    Table 'PKDOM_IDNP_OMH272' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
    Seat 1: XAZ474E05CE826 ($8000 in chips)
    Seat 2: PERMATA131 ($10730 in chips)
    Seat 3: C500F5147D777 ($28960 in chips)
    Seat 4: UCOK1187 ($20322 in chips)
    Seat 5: DEWADAJAL ($7560 in chips)
    Seat 6: B92D22D4C17864 ($8000 in chips)
    # {"gt":"PLO","tn":"PKDOM_IDNP_OMH272","tid":272,"pn ":{"0":"XAZ474E05CE826","1":"PERMATA131","2":"C500 F5147D777","3":"UCOK1187","4":"DEWADAJAL","5":"B92 D22D4C17864"},"pids":{"0":429796917,"1":245599771, "2":377291985,"3":416389715,"4":794587894,"5":7736 88330},"room":"Idnp"}
    XAZ474E05CE826: posts the ante $40
    PERMATA131: posts the ante $40
    C500F5147D777: posts the ante $40
    UCOK1187: posts the ante $40
    DEWADAJAL: posts the ante $40
    B92D22D4C17864: posts the ante $40
    UCOK1187: posts small blind $200
    DEWADAJAL: posts big blind $400
    XAZ474E05CE826: posts big blind $400
    PERMATA131: posts big blind $400
    B92D22D4C17864: posts big blind $400

    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    B92D22D4C17864: checks
    XAZ474E05CE826: checks
    PERMATA131: raises $2040 to $2440
    C500F5147D777: calls $2440
    UCOK1187: calls $2240
    DEWADAJAL: folds
    B92D22D4C17864: folds
    XAZ474E05CE826: calls $2040
    *** FLOP *** [2s 5c 2h]
    UCOK1187: checks
    XAZ474E05CE826: checks
    PERMATA131: checks
    C500F5147D777: bets $10800
    UCOK1187: raises $7042 to $17842 and is all-in
    XAZ474E05CE826: folds
    PERMATA131: folds
    C500F5147D777: calls $7042
    *** TURN *** [2s 5c 2h] [3s]
    *** RIVER *** [2s 5c 2h 3s] [6d]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    UCOK1187 collected $45089 from pot
    UCOK1187: shows [Kd 6s 3c 4h]
    C500F5147D777: shows [9d Tc Ts 7d]
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot $46484 | Rake $1395
    Board [2s 5c 2h 3s 6d]
    Seat 1: XAZ474E05CE826 folded on the Flop
    Seat 2: PERMATA131 folded on the Flop
    Seat 3: C500F5147D777 (button) showed [9d Tc Ts 7d] and lost with XZ
    Seat 4: UCOK1187 (small blind) showed [Kd 6s 3c 4h] and won ($45089) with XZ
    Seat 5: DEWADAJAL (big blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 6: B92D22D4C17864 folded before Flop

    Therefore, it would be wonderful if the developers RETURNED this option, as it once was in NC. :


Similar Threads

  1. HUD Anzeige: raise flop, raise turn, raise river
    By potlimit88 in forum German Forum
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 03-01-2013, 11:42 PM
  2. Flop Raise Cbet From Hero Raised Pot Preflop Out Of Position
    By Hunt in forum Русский форум
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 08-19-2012, 06:17 PM
  3. Preflop raise size / pot is bigger than
    By donger in forum Manager General
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 10-29-2010, 03:23 PM
  4. Where are "raise flop," "raise turn," "raise river" stats?
    By negtv capability in forum Manager General
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 10-16-2010, 12:35 AM
  5. Filter - Preflop Raise Size Pot is Less Than
    By FriskyPirate in forum Manager General
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-03-2009, 11:04 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •