Effective Stack Size should be BEFORE blinds are posted, not AFTER

[mjenkins]

Currently this stack size for SB/BB is (incorrectly) not effective stack = 500

if u set the filters to 10 10 for effective bb

general > preflop > effective filters.....here SB isn't counted properly, but BB is counted properly... so it is a bug?

PokerStars Hand #111111111111: Tournament #999999999, $3.68+$0.07 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level I (25/50) - 2014/08/17 15:50:06 WET [2014/08/17 10:50:06 ET]
Table '954396405 1' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Player1 (500 in chips)
Seat 2: Player2 (500 in chips)
Seat 3: Player3 (500 in chips)
Seat 4: Player4 (500 in chips)
Seat 5: Player5 (500 in chips)
Seat 6: Player6 (500 in chips)
Player1: posts the ante 10
Player2: posts the ante 10
Player3: posts the ante 10
Player4: posts the ante 10
Player5: posts the ante 10
Player6: posts the ante 10
Player2: posts small blind 25
Player3: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Player3 [Td Js]
Player4: folds
Player5: folds
Player6: folds
Player1: folds
Player2: raises 440 to 490 and is all-in
Player3: calls 440 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [4c 5s Qc]
*** TURN *** [4c 5s Qc] [9h]
*** RIVER *** [4c 5s Qc 9h] [5c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Player2: shows [As 3c] (a pair of Fives)
Player3: shows [Td Js] (a pair of Fives - lower kicker)
Player3 collected 1040 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1040 | Rake 0
Board [4c 5s Qc 9h 5c]
Seat 1: Player1 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Player2 (small blind) showed [As 3c] and won (1040) with a pair of Fives
Seat 3: Player3 (big blind) showed [Td Js] and lost with a pair of Fives
Seat 4: Player4 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Player5 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Player6 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[mjenkins]

Also see: Is the 'effective stack size' before or after blinds take? - STT Poker Strategy - Single Table Tournament Poker Forum

[mjenkins]

This 2+2 thread linked in the one I just posted has more replies also: Effective stacks: are they considered "before" blinds post and bets or "after" them? - Beginning Poker Questions - Beginner Poker Forum

[sreticentv]

As answered in the 2+2 thread NC counts effective stack as amount that can be lost. Blinds are not included there as they are lost before the hand starts and your decision is based on the chips you still have.

In the thread that was linked http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/32...-them-1097860/ there is a different opinion in every post. If I change this to how you want, then tomorrow someone else will come and say "IT'S A BUG IT SHOULD BE AFTER BLINDS!!!!"
Will you be in this forum standing tall for your idea?

This is not a bug
This is not going to change
Sorry if you find it disagreeable

[mjenkins]

In the thread that was linked Effective stacks: are they considered "before" blinds post and bets or "after" them? - Beginning Poker Questions - Beginner Poker Forum there is a different opinion in every post.

There are five people that post agreeing that the effective stack is BEFORE blinds are posted. Two say this and also DURING the hand. None say that the effective stack size is taken at the begining of the hand but after the blinds are posted, which is what you are doing now.

I believe that the majority of people would assume you are currently doing it my way and the only people who would be upset are those who have made a definition and accounted for the mistake already.

[mjenkins]

I have been doing some more testing of this feature:

If you load the HoldemManager Reports tab, click Tournaments, then the 'By Poker Site' to show all SNGs.

Select 'More Filters' and then select Effective Stack Size in bb and choose equal to 10 (for my example hand history).

This produces the example hand as a result, therefore showing that they use effective stacks BEFORE blinds and antes are taken/counted.



However if you go to NoteCaddy and create any definition to test vs my hand and set:

If you use 8.8 as min/max effective stack size filter (This is BB stack - BB - Ante (10 - 1 - 0.2))
It does not return my hand history

Am I doing this properly to return my example HH?


However If I set:

9.3bb as min/max effective stack size filter (This is SB stack - SB - Ante (10 - 0.5 - 0.2))
It returns my example hand history


Is this a bug? It seems that it is after SB and ante, but not after BB and?

[sreticentv]

Why not post your example hand and definition? I have already stated, pretty clearly in my opinion, that I need this rather than your best description

[mjenkins]

I posted the hand history in post 1:

PokerStars Hand #111111111111: Tournament #999999999, $3.68+$0.07 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level I (25/50) - 2014/08/17 15:50:06 WET [2014/08/17 10:50:06 ET]
Table '954396405 1' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Player1 (500 in chips)
Seat 2: Player2 (500 in chips)
Seat 3: Player3 (500 in chips)
Seat 4: Player4 (500 in chips)
Seat 5: Player5 (500 in chips)
Seat 6: Player6 (500 in chips)
Player1: posts the ante 10
Player2: posts the ante 10
Player3: posts the ante 10
Player4: posts the ante 10
Player5: posts the ante 10
Player6: posts the ante 10
Player2: posts small blind 25
Player3: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Player3 [Td Js]
Player4: folds
Player5: folds
Player6: folds
Player1: folds
Player2: raises 440 to 490 and is all-in
Player3: calls 440 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [4c 5s Qc]
*** TURN *** [4c 5s Qc] [9h]
*** RIVER *** [4c 5s Qc 9h] [5c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Player2: shows [As 3c] (a pair of Fives)
Player3: shows [Td Js] (a pair of Fives - lower kicker)
Player3 collected 1040 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1040 | Rake 0
Board [4c 5s Qc 9h 5c]
Seat 1: Player1 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Player2 (small blind) showed [As 3c] and won (1040) with a pair of Fives
Seat 3: Player3 (big blind) showed [Td Js] and lost with a pair of Fives
Seat 4: Player4 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Player5 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Player6 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

5h-BBfoldvSB-8-12bbTest.xml5h-BBfoldvSB-8-12bbTest.xml

This is the definition I am testing it on, but it could be any definition that uses effective stack sizes.

[sreticentv]

It seems in BvB situations there is a 0.5 big blind discrepancy. This will be fixed for the next release. I applaud your commitment to seeking out and finding a bug.

[mjenkins]

It seems in BvB situations there is a 0.5 big blind discrepancy. This will be fixed for the next release. I applaud your commitment to seeking out and finding a bug.

Thanks for the bug fix.

I asked HEM2:



And PT4:



You can see that neither do it after the blinds, like you do. I don't want you to feel like I have a problem with you, I just would like to use NoteCaddy in the way that makes the most sense. As a HoldemManager product I believe NC should use the same system. Either way both HEM2 and PT4 systems are a lot easier to create and work with definitions with regards to effective stack sizes.

What do I need to do for you to change this? I have researched it as much as I can and got answers from the two biggest softwares in the business.