wwsf vs postflop agg%

[epi]

im currentlyy using the leakbuster hitman hud, i reli like the simplicity of it and how fast the stats converge.

however, i was wondering how wwsf and agg% tell me different things. i feel like they both point to aggression. i guess wwsf can indicate a player is making actual big bets, where as agg% can be from min bets. but thats not gonna be a common situation, cos people dont do that too often, so im not sure how they are different in terms of info.

also, i added agg factor. even though i have agg%, agg factor can tell me if someone calls down alot. what colour coding would you guys suggest for agg f for red, orange, yellow, green.

[Patvs]

AF color coding: http://forums.holdemmanager.com/shar...-thoughts.html


To answer your question, let's first look at the difference between Aggression Factor and Aggression Percentage.
Main purpose of both stats is to see how 'aggressive' an opponent is.


Aggression Frequency: (Bets% + Raises%) / (Calls% + Folds%)

Aggression Percentage = ((Bets + Raises) / ((Bets + Raises) + (Calls + Checks))) * 100% (Aggression Percentage = aggressive action on each street. So if I bet the turn and the river but check the flop I would have 66% Agg Pct because I made 2 out of 3 aggressive actions.)

Aggression Factor: (Bets% + Raise%) / Calls%


b/b/b - AF: inf, AFq: 100, Agg Pct: 100
b/x/b - AF: inf, AFq: 100, Agg Pct: 67
b/x/x - AF: inf, AFq: 100, Agg Pct: 33
b/x/c - AF: 1.0, AFq: 50, Agg Pct: 33
b/c/c - AF: 0.5, AFq: 33, Agg Pct: 33

b = bet
x = check
c = call


Quickly forget about Aggression Frequency (AF). PokerTracker users sometimes use this.
HoldemManager only has Aggression Factor and Aggression Percentage.


Opponent A has an AF of 0.5.
Opponent B has an AF of 7.

Opponent B is very aggressive. An AF of 7 is very high. He's 7x more likely to bet/raise than he is to call.
So he will likely bet his drawing hands (or raise with them!), but he will also be capable to donkbet the flop, cbet every hand, make probe bets, triple barrel, bluff the river, etc.


Opponent A is very passive. He's twice more likely to call..... than he will ever bet/raise.
So he will likely only call with his drawing hands.... only bet a made-hand, and he won't make any of the aggressive (semi)-bluff bets (/raises) player B is capable of.

[Patvs]

Won When Saw Flop is something entirely different.

It doesn't tell you anything about how often an opponent will bet / call (be aggressive vs passive).
It only tells you -literally- how often an opponent will win the hand, when he saw a flop.


For example: an opponent with VPIP/PFR 8/3 (super super tight), basically only raising AA/KK/AK/QQ.
If this opponent has a Won When Saw Flop of 80%, it kind of makes sense.

Since any low flop (258... when he has an overpair), or Axx flop or Kxx flop, this opponent will often win the hand.
(and if he's aggressive he can win most hands with a Continuation bet)


WWSF becomes interesting when an opponent has VPIP/PFR 30/22 stats.

AF tells you, how this opponent will play the hand postflop.
WWSF tells you how often he wins the hand.

You can easily have an opponent with AF: 4, with WWSF: 80%
but AF: 4 with WWSF: 20% is also possible.
or AF: 0.5 with WWSF: 80%
or AF 0.5 with WWSF: 20%.

[epi]

thank you for a detailed reply.

this is certainly something i was thinking about. a tight player can have high aggression and wwsf, but then i cud just peak at his vpip/pfr to notice this trend. i want to know if wwsf can offer extra info, not available by looking at the basic stats, ie vpip/agg f etc

[Patvs]

WWSF's color ranges are at: http://forums.holdemmanager.com/shar...-thoughts.html


Green = exploitable (for being either too low / or too high, as both can be exploited).\

The stat is also used in Harrington's Advanced HUD (HUD is explained in his book Harrington on Online Cash Games)