Mainly because the stats are only one side of the equation. The second side, verification/validation, is not possible with HM because of RVG's bias towards ring games. I would rather not cast dispersions on RVG/developers in open forum.Originally Posted by _Loki_
I'm MTT/SnG player too.
Can't see why there can't be open discussion as to how we might get more functionality out of HEM until resources are there to "expand" its features in our direction.
The player analysis window is a particular annoyance, and a grid perhaps comparing the range of stats for the current players would be far more use, or perhaps even access to the table so we could plug our own averages in.
Lets face it User voice isn't exactly the easiest place to have a useful dialogue.
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I agree:
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This is interesting - does any other software do this so I can see what you mean exactly ?
################...player analysis window is a particular annoyance, and a grid perhaps comparing the range of stats for the current players would be far more use, or perhaps even access to the table so we could plug our own averages in
EXACTLY !
################... User voice isn't exactly the easiest place to have a useful dialogue
I hope I started something here! Maybe we can even get a special MTT and S&G part of the forum???
I don't think an MTT/SnG strat section of the forum would contribute much, and there are plenty of other sites that cater to poker strat. I'm sure Roy doesn't want a software forum clogged with "you should always re-raise a 4-bet on thursdays"... he's more interested in seeing if he can create a HM stat for 're-raised_4-bets"; and rightly so.
However, I am more than happy to highlight where I think HM can be improved to serve tourney players. The frustrating thing for me is that I know the data is there, I can smell it, but I can't get at it and RVG won't/can't give me the tools even though the tools are already in place for cash games players. So frustrating!
@ Loki. I agree, from my perspective uservoice isn't worth squat. I've sat back and watched HM modified to bring in new poker sites (with an average population of 6... on a good day) that did little more than introduce a whole raft of problems that kept the developers occupied, and yet tourney players still can't get some basic tools. I've seen LeakBuster and Holdem Vision brought in, Table Scanner gone onto steroids and now Table Ninja brought under the HM umbrella all for ring game players, but NOT ONE single aspect developed that I can sit back as a tourney player and say "Roy, that's cool".
[/end rant]
The Minder - absolutely spot on - agree 100% with your "rant"
Didn't mean a strat section either but exactly as you say - let's try and see what useful info we can squeeze out as is, and then if we hit a wall agree what could/should be added/tweaked to to help it along.
The problem will always be the scarcity of stats we're going to have on villains, and therefore I guess not too many folks are going to devote masses of time to develop enhancements as the cash guys are getting.
I'm only a recreational player and only tend to start tinkering when the mood or the doom switches.
But if a few of us can have a bit of a brainstorm I'm sure we could benefit.
Loki - nothing specific with regard to the active player window, but just that it's not that much use as it stands, but as Minder says, the stats are there, just not how or where we need them.
I'll try and spend some time over the next few days and post some thoughts.
This is a great discussion guys and we do want to hear suggestions on tourney stats and what you think should be added. Holdem Manager got to be where it is today because we listened to our customers from day 1. I don't see this changing anytime soon so please keep the discussion alive.
I personally filter all bugs and feature requests. Come up with a Top 5 or 10 list of tourney features that you want added and I'll be sure to review and comment on them. I'm fairly busy myself, but I do jump in the forums and help out when requested and I like the direction this thread is going even though it's totally derailed. :-)
Yes, we try to stay away from strategy questions as much as possible. Lets just say we're all breakeven SNG or MTT players. We're not qualified to give strategy advice. :-)
Thanks,
-B
Almost forgot - what about the full tourney support that was added about a year ago? We do want to improve every part of Holdem Manager and that's one reason why there's been so many UI changes recently. This is only the beginning.
OOOOOOOhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Last edited by The Minder; 01-30-2010 at 09:15 PM.
That's the whole crux of my argument, as an MTT/SnG player I don't want any more stats. 90% of the current stats have no real meaning for a tourney player so creating more stats will do what?
Wonderful. Where do you want this list, here or in a new thread... if in a new thread, which section. You see where I'm going with this right?
My preference is:
1. Get rid of uservoice.
2. Reintroduce a 'features requests' section with the top five requests stickied. One subsection each for Cash and Tourney.
3. Requested features have to be supported by explanation of 'why' the feature has been identified. Hopefully we can thus avoid "we just gotta have a stat, 17-beer-cans_preflop_on-sundays cos ever1 wants it!".
4. Whoever moderates the thread actually plays more tournies than they do ring games.
Hmmm... correct me if I'm wrong, but prior to the 'tourny' release there was nothing in HM for tourney players so I guess something is better than nothing right? And since the tourney release there have been how many 'tourney features' added/upgraded or modified so they actually work?
Let me give you a 'for instance'. Tourney > Graphs and the check box that says "show luck adjusted winnings", which is 'on' by default. I'm not sure what this is supposed to show, because it only applies to STTs in a mix of STT/SnG/MTTs. Imagine the hew and cry if Cash Games > Graphs excluded all hand data for sundays... sometimes!
-B If you're serious about this, then lead on. Make no mistake, I think HM is a great product... I just want it to do what it says it will do.
In support of The Minder - "If wishes were horses"
UserVoice as it stands - far too difficult & time consuming to navigate - a complete mess
Extract from my post of 6 weeks ago:
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