EV$ calculations in multiway pots: when will we have a solution?
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  1. #1
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    Default EV$ calculations in multiway pots: when will we have a solution?

    It's been a long time now since I use HM and I find it time to give a solution to the EV$ calculation problem on multiway pots.

    Under my point of view, EV$ calcs are a valuable tool that we need to evaluate our real play, if we are not results oriented but play oriented. HM lacking a right calculation of EV$ is a major leak in my opinion.

    I think that us, HM customer, have been patient enough with this issue, and we've been hoping it to be solved realease after release with no success. We've seen countless post in this forum stating it will be solved, but the solution you came upon (using the EV$ when the lasts to act players put money inv the pot) is far from correct.

    It is not normal to have an EV$ calculation that tells you that, if you go allin preflop with AA against two players that have more stack than you and one of them catches a set in the flop, bet, and the third player folds, your equity in that hand was a 10%. Not acceptable when there are 3rd party tools out there capable of calculating EV street by street, as it should be.

    Please, HM developers, address this once and for ever. If not the product, in my opinion, doesn't meet the goals it promised when I bought it, and I'll tranform from a patient to a dissapointed customer.

  2. #2
    *** HM3! *** fozzy71's Avatar
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    I have forwarded this thread to the developer for a reply.

  3. #3
    Administrator Rvg72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mon View Post
    It is not normal to have an EV$ calculation that tells you that, if you go allin preflop with AA against two players that have more stack than you and one of them catches a set in the flop, bet, and the third player folds, your equity in that hand was a 10%. Not acceptable when there are 3rd party tools out there capable of calculating EV street by street, as it should be.
    This creates invalid results. If the first player who hit a set had 22 and the second player who folded to the flop shove had AA then should your EV really be 83% on the preflop shove?

    Our EV is all-in EV and to remove bias it is calculated from the point where there are no more actions. Other tools do provide this info and we may possibly add it at some point but just because other tools calculate it that doesn't mean it is correct.

    Roy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rvg72 View Post
    This creates invalid results. If the first player who hit a set had 22 and the second player who folded to the flop shove had AA then should your EV really be 83% on the preflop shove?
    Sorry, I don't understand your example. How could I fold to the flop shove if I already went allin preflop?

    Please, correct me if Im wrong with the calcs in this example:

    Preflop:

    Hero has AA with 50BB
    Villain1 has 22 with 100BB
    Villain3 has 66 with 100BB

    Hero goes allin preflop for 100

    Equities: Hero 66% (0.66*150BB=99BB), Villain1 14% (0.14*150BB=21BB), Villain2 20% (0.20*150BB=30BB)

    Flop: x2x

    Villain1 goes allin, Villain2 calls

    Equities: Villain1 87% (0.87*100BB=87BB), Villain2 13%(0.13*100BB=13BB)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rvg72 View Post
    Our EV is all-in EV and to remove bias it is calculated from the point where there are no more actions. Other tools do provide this info and we may possibly add it at some point but just because other tools calculate it that doesn't mean it is correct.
    I understand that what you are calculating is Allin EV and not Sklansky Bucks, but given the missinformation and invalid results that Allin EV gives in multiway pots I strongly suggest that you implement Sklansky Bucks street by street as a better meassure of our real play.

    Thank you.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rvg72 View Post
    This creates invalid results. If the first player who hit a set had 22 and the second player who folded to the flop shove had AA then should your EV really be 83% on the preflop shove?

    Our EV is all-in EV and to remove bias it is calculated from the point where there are no more actions. Other tools do provide this info and we may possibly add it at some point but just because other tools calculate it that doesn't mean it is correct.

    Roy

    just wanted to confirm here... when you say it is "calculated from the point where there are no more actions", you do in fact mean "no more actions" ie. everyone is all in?

    ie. if i go all in and two other players (not all in) check it down, my EV would be whatever my EV is at showdown, correct?

  6. #6
    *** HM3! *** fozzy71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stinkypete View Post
    just wanted to confirm here... when you say it is "calculated from the point where there are no more actions", you do in fact mean "no more actions" ie. everyone is all in?
    ........
    Correct

    HM only calculates 'All-In Expected Value'. It can only do that if all players still in the hand, are all-in and their hole cards known.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by fozzy71 View Post
    Correct

    HM only calculates 'All-In Expected Value'. It can only do that if all players still in the hand, are all-in and their hole cards known.
    ok good... thanks for doing it right! trying to get that pokerEV dude to do it right was such a pain.... lol

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rvg72 View Post
    This creates invalid results. If the first player who hit a set had 22 and the second player who folded to the flop shove had AA then should your EV really be 83% on the preflop shove?

    Our EV is all-in EV and to remove bias it is calculated from the point where there are no more actions. Other tools do provide this info and we may possibly add it at some point but just because other tools calculate it that doesn't mean it is correct.

    Roy
    Roy, I agree that calculating the EV preflop when one or more player is not all in would be inaccurate but calculating EV on the street where the last players are all in even when some of the players are all in on a previous street is not the ideal solution either. It would be better if there was an option not to include hands where players weren't all in on the same street in EV calculations since the equity on the flop and turn is not very relevant to the player who was all in preflop.

  9. #9
    *** HM3! *** fozzy71's Avatar
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    We will be expanding our EV functionality next year.

  10. #10
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    Why there is no EV? I went all-in on the preflop, and one opponent showed his cards: AJ. The other opponent folded after the flop but before showdown.
    So due to this, my equity of AK vs AJ on the distance is 0-7.75= - 7.75 dollars))

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