Can't find my leak! Please help.... :(

[Shloogy]

Hello
I play short stack 6max tables.
When moved up to NL100, after 20k hands, I'm down 30 buy ins overall (not taking into account that I was actually up at the beginning, so from the top I'm actually 40 buy ins) .

Now I'm trying to find where my leaks at, using what ever crossing my mind to do so:

1. first checking positions :
Overall EP MP CO BTN - all winning
SB and BB - losing (standard right?)
3bet MP CO BTN - winning
defending SB & BB - winning

2. checking steals etc
steal success : winning

3. Heads up on flop : winning
Heads up on flop no pfr : losing. I dont think it's a leak since I play short stack and usually dont get involved in pots were I didnt was the aggressor.

4. Multiway flop - winning
Pocket pairs - 88-AA all winning
- 22-77 some winning some losing, very small amount though.


I went through all the "plugging leaks articles" plus filtered additional situations.

I can't find my leaks, could any1 help please? really appreciate it!

[Al1]

Article are for deep stack play 100bb generally.

What's your vpip/pfr/AF/3bet

[deletedaccount]

Sounds like the blinds are eating you up. How tight are you?

[Shloogy]

Yes the blinds eating me alive and I have no idea why...

HOWEVER, it appears that I play them to perfection :
Im losing -27BB\100 or -0.27\Hand which is incredibly close to the optimum -0.21 !

Hence I have no idea where my leak at, this has never happened to me before while moving up the limits nice and slow with a nitty 50 buy ins bankroll.

my vpip/pfr/AF/3bet :
7.1/6.9/4.4/6.4

my win $ at showdown is 58%

Thanks in advance, really appreciate any assistance.

[Al1]

Have you tried the Ed Miller short stack strategy?

[Shloogy]

Where can I find it

And more important why do I need it?

all stats seems to be very good and I have already extensive knowladge about this game.

Im asking here since it's the place where you plug your leaks right? not where you learn "how to.." ;-)

So can you come up with something that might help me find what's screwing me up for instance maybe some filter or I dont know?

Thanks in advance,

[Al1]

Where can I find it

And more important why do I need it?

all stats seems to be very good and I have already extensive knowladge about this game.

Im asking here since it's the place where you plug your leaks right? not where you learn "how to.." ;-)

So can you come up with something that might help me find what's screwing me up for instance maybe some filter or I dont know?

Thanks in advance,

In fact, Articles are what HM give to you to find your leaks. But it's for deep stack play 100bb not short stack.
Furthermore, I can't help you with your game because I don't play SS.
This forum is not really a strategy forum, try http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/

You will find the book in 2+2 too.

[deletedaccount]

Yes the blinds eating me alive and I have no idea why...

HOWEVER, it appears that I play them to perfection :
Im losing -27BB\100 or -0.27\Hand which is incredibly close to the optimum -0.21 !

Hence I have no idea where my leak at, this has never happened to me before while moving up the limits nice and slow with a nitty 50 buy ins bankroll.

my vpip/pfr/AF/3bet :
7.1/6.9/4.4/6.4

my win $ at showdown is 58%

Thanks in advance, really appreciate any assistance.

The blinds are eating you up because you're never stealing them imo. You play 7% of your hands. Try opening up or something.

I've got no idea of ss strategy other than you make money from other people folding to your shoves pre or calling with worse. If people are opening 33% of their hands from the button you can profitably shove more than 7% back from the BB imo.

This means for every 50bb you post in blinds you're playing 7 hands btw.

[Shloogy]

thanks for the replies guys

To deletedaccount
Your wrong
I play 7% of all hands but way way wider from SB and BB, that's why I wrote that I lose only 0.27\hand which is close to perfection (since SB BB are naturally -EV ) you should have a look at stoxEV and see for yourself that -0.21\hand is the optimal winrate for the blinds.

to Al1
I wasnt asking for advice on how to play, was asking if there any filter that I havent checked thats worth checking

[deletedaccount]

You're welcome.

[Reg]

Short stackers losing money. I like it :)

[PCP Poker]

Mind you, this is coming from a short stacker in a previous life (who made a decent chunk of coin at it).

Stop Short Stacking and learn to play poker. Texas Holdem has 4 betting rounds, not 2. The turn and river are where 95% of big profits come from.

There, your leak is plugged. Good day.

[lucky_river]

learn to play poker, no to play stupid annoying shorstacking.
shortstacks deserve to lose

[aje221]

shortstackers = scum of the universe imo

[Shloogy]

All I have to say to you all is L-O-L

It just show how domb you are in poker ...
It all comes in the end to how many BB\100 you earn.

Oh and I have found the leak ...go stick your head in the toilet ...:D

[aje221]

LOL care to compare graphs sir?

[morny]

Keep it civil please or ill lock the thread

[NoTurns]

Mind you, this is coming from a short stacker in a previous life (who made a decent chunk of coin at it).

Stop Short Stacking and learn to play poker. Texas Holdem has 4 betting rounds, not 2. The turn and river are where 95% of big profits come from.

There, your leak is plugged. Good day.

+1, although I've never really shortstacked myself but have analyzed their play extensively how to play against them. Once this is done shortstackers are free money. So, I'd have to agree, your biggest single leak is probably the fact you're shortstacking.

And yes it is about the bb/100 and no, I have never met a shortstacker who had a higher winrate then the better regulars at those stakes.

The most annoying thing I personally find about shortstackers is the fact I feel they are destroying the games. They are making everyone tighter, making the tables less fun to play at for fish. Also, with their 3betting regulars they keep pushing fish out of pots. Mind you, fish like playing hands, seeing flops, turns, rivers and simply play the game. Shortstackers make this harder for them to do. You should also want to do this (play hands) with the fish though since the further you are in the hand the bigger the mistakes are the fish tend to make. The more shotstackers are active, the less skill is involved (not saying shortstacking doesnt require any skill), which obv is not good for the game long term imho. Again, personally, I see shortstackers as free money so by all means, keep on shortstacking but looking at the bigger picture I say please consider learning to play poker.

[aje221]

I would be interested to see his graph, based on what limits he plays, I'm curious if he is profitable. I only play 100NL but I do not think I have seen a profitable shortstacker at 100NL (or even at my time at 200NL). I do know of a few at 600NL and 1000NL that are pretty profitable at it, but the variance is rediculous. I've seen a very profitable 1000NL shortstackers graph that looks like a freaking sizmic radar, routinely swinging 20+ buyins in a very short time.

For me, I'll play 100bbs and keep my 2.6bb/100 winrate over my last 60k+ hands.

[deathduck]

Wow I'm suprised there were no short stacker flamers on the first page ;).

OP, you pretty much have the basic 'good shortstacker' strategy down very well. It sounds like you need to find more advanced short stacking tactics to succeed in 100NL, I don't know if HEM holds the answers you are looking for.

Your post doesn't really make much sense either your saying every thing you do is winning and you have an optimal win rate from the blinds yet your losing many buy ins? I know there are very very few profitable short stackers in mid stakes poker, and their profit margin is small. Maybe you are experiencing normal variance??

[mrhobbeys]

.......

If we were to consider that Poker is just as rich as life we would have to admit that there is a time and place for short stacking, ie; player thinks he/she is not as good in a game, player has low bankroll, player is moving up in stakes.

I even remember reading that this is correct in some of the twoplustwo books, I also think that the only reason people don't like this is because mathematically such as strategy is very hard to beat if not impossible.

[totheinternet]

40 shortstack buyins? That's like 8 regular buyins...

[stretch00]

Wow I'm suprised there were no short stacker flamers on the first page ;).

OP, you pretty much have the basic 'good shortstacker' strategy down very well. It sounds like you need to find more advanced short stacking tactics to succeed in 100NL, I don't know if HEM holds the answers you are looking for.

Your post doesn't really make much sense either your saying every thing you do is winning and you have an optimal win rate from the blinds yet your losing many buy ins? I know there are very very few profitable short stackers in mid stakes poker, and their profit margin is small. Maybe you are experiencing normal variance??


Yes the blinds eating me alive and I have no idea why...

HOWEVER, it appears that I play them to perfection :
Im losing -27BB\100 or -0.27\Hand which is incredibly close to the optimum -0.21 !

Hence I have no idea where my leak at, this has never happened to me before while moving up the limits nice and slow with a nitty 50 buy ins bankroll.

my vpip/pfr/AF/3bet :
7.1/6.9/4.4/6.4

my win $ at showdown is 58%

Thanks in advance, really appreciate any assistance.

DEATHDUCK; BEST POST OF THE THREAD!! :cool:

OP; IMO if you really are playing a solid SS strategy, and only pushing the correct HNDS with the correct position and the correct villains position, you would have a better W$@SD than <60%.
but you really did not give enough info for anyone to accurately say.
But if I was to say I think you need to review you strategy from the start.
are you shoving A8s/MP2 w/17BB into 25+ stacks?
are you shoving AQ/LP after 2 villains VPIP etc,etc,etc,,
Do you have an ICM trainner? Do you use it?

[totheinternet]

OP, you pretty much have the basic 'good shortstacker' strategy down very well. It sounds like you need to find more advanced short stacking tactics to succeed in 100NL, I don't know if HEM holds the answers you are looking for.


7vpip is way too tight to be "good".

[chris_k14]

Never played shortstack cash. I have found however as a 100bb player, that shortstackers tend to be easily exploitable: mainly because they aren't good at it and/or they are fish looking for a leisure game(time to get a big rod and hook out). If you enjoy short stack, then thats great, thats what you should play. You have added deceptive value as ST's usually give the perception of a fish.

I believe with your quoted range of playable hands you won't make much at 100nl and above. If you pokerstove your hand range, it is very nitty. Regs are too good these days at those stakes and will stay away from you unless they have the goods. So because of this, you won't take big enough pots down when you do finally play a hand to make up for not stealing frequently enough. Therefore you'll creep into -bb/100 because you aren't making enough money from your playable range of hands to account for the amount you lose in blinds. Your blind bb/100 stats are therefore irrelevant in this case. I don't think any stat in HEM will tell you this is whats happening? Thats my take on it anyway.

[CoolMikePoker]

For the OP:

Consider the following:

-.27/Hand is nowhere close to the optimal -.21/Hand.

Your just not that close. Your almost 30 percent off! Your 6bb/100 off!

I was surprised nobody caught this earlier.

[Shloogy]

Yo guys...


I forgot to update you....

Found the leak, running very good (2.5BB\100) now for more than 100k hands.


Thanks for all your freedback and comments.

For all short stakes haters with the necessary comments - shove it up yr asses guys.
SS are players just as big stacks.
You dont want to play with SS? go to deep tables. otherwise shut up.

Yes the games are now tough so you better learn to accept it.