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View Full Version : $EV Won and $EV Adjusted Values



asymmetric
03-08-2009, 07:49 PM
Hello, I would like to know how work the $EV WON in Tourney-->Results-->Data View and the $EV Adjusted Values in Tourney-->Results-->Graph.

Ty.

asymmetric
03-09-2009, 03:41 PM
Nobody?!!??!

Collin Moshman
03-09-2009, 05:06 PM
Yes I'd like to see a description of how this is calculated as well.

asymmetric support needs a little time to answer questions, they always give solid answers but can't always reply within a few hours of a post...

morny
03-09-2009, 07:06 PM
Escalated to Roy, hell respond here asap

Mike chops
03-09-2009, 07:58 PM
ICM (independent chip model) is an algorithm for calculating what everybody's equity is for a tournament, given the stack sizes and payout structure. The tournament $EV adjusted tries to work out just how many real $ (not T$) you gained from an all-in situation. A quick example mght help.

You have 2500 chips vs your HU opponent's 7500 in a winner takes all tournament for $100. Your ICM calculated EV before the hand is $25.

You get all in as an 80/20 favorite. If you lose you are busted and have an ICM calculated EV of $0. If you win, you have equal stacks and an EV of $50. Holdem Mananger weights the resulting EVs by probability and your overall EV is $40. If you win your EV $ diff is -$10 ($40 expected result - $50 win result). If you lose your EV the EV $ diff is $40.

That's a pretty simple example. You don't need a fancy ICM algorithm to calculate EV heads up. Things get more complicated with more than 2 players and even more still when more than 2 players are all in. We have to calculate the chances or player A beating player B who beats player C, or A beats B who ties with C etc. You can see the calculations in detail if you click the ICM button in the replayer.

You will aslo see small EV differences for hands you weren't even all-in for. This is because your EV is affected by whether a shortstack busts and marginally improves the chances of all the remaining players, even if they didnt get chips from him.

asymmetric
03-09-2009, 10:56 PM
Ty guys, your answers were very valuable. But, i have another question. I analyzed what the software do and look like it just consider the hands which I went all in preflop. And how about the hands I went all in on the turn and on the river? Does not the software consider this situation?
I'm sorry, my english is bad.

Mike chops
03-10-2009, 11:20 AM
We don't exclude hands where you weren't all in. The effects are usually small anyway.

The odds are calculated depending on what street you were all-in.

Collin Moshman
03-10-2009, 05:17 PM
So each hand HEM calculates your ICM EV, and calculates luck as the difference between EV and actual equity at the end of the hand. Then luck for the game as a whole is the sum of the luck for each hand. Sounds good.

asymmetric
03-10-2009, 07:12 PM
Hello guys,

I am talking about hands that I went all in on the turn and on the river. The hands that I went all in preflop, I understood how the software works.
My question follows, supose the situation:

Seat 1: player1 (1510 in chips)
Seat 2: player2 (1490 in chips)
player1: posts small blind 10
player2: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to player2 [As 3s]
player1: raises 40 to 60
player2: calls 40
*** FLOP *** [Ad 5d 4c]
player2: checks
player1: bets 80
player2: raises 160 to 240
PHMERC: calls 160
*** TURN *** [Ad 5d 4c] [6c]
player2: checks
player1: bets 420
player2: calls 420
*** RIVER *** [Ad 5d 4c 6c] [Qd]
player2: bets 770 and is all-in
player1: calls 770
*** SHOW DOWN ***
player2: shows [As 3s] (a pair of Aces)
player1: shows [5h 6h] (two pair, Sixes and Fives)
player1 collected 2980 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2980 | Rake 0
Board [Ad 5d 4c 6c Qd]
Seat 1: player1 (button) (small blind) showed [5h 6h] and won (2980) with two pair, Sixes and Fives
Seat 2: player2 (big blind) showed [As 3s] and lost with a pair of Aces

When I click on ICM button appears:
Payouts
1 $66.00

Start EV End EV Diff Player
$33.22 $66.00 $32.78 player1
$32.78 $0.00 ($32.78) player2

And $EV Diff is 0.00

Why this happens? I can't understand this.
When I went all in preflop and click on the ICM button, there is a wide description and the $EV Diff appears.

Please help me.
To me, looks like the software doesn't consider situations where I went all in on the flop and on the river.

Ty.

morny
03-11-2009, 01:51 PM
EV isnt calculated on the river since there is no more streets to come the EV is either 0 or 100

asymmetric
03-11-2009, 02:47 PM
You are right. My example was terrible!lol
But supose that I went all in on the turn. Is the $EV calculated?
I'm not with HM now, but later I will analize and post the results here.

Ty.

morny
03-11-2009, 04:27 PM
Yes its calculated if its all in on the turn or earlier

asymmetric
03-13-2009, 12:21 AM
Yes Morny, you are right.
Ty for your explanations.

yngwiescruggs
05-14-2009, 05:20 PM
I have a further question/complaint. The EV reported for a double or nothing game sometimes has been OVER the maximum prize possible in the tournament.

I downloaded and ran the trial version last night and it calculated my all in EV as more than twice the buy-in for a double or nothing SNG, which is obviously impossible. This issue is making the calculation biased toward people thinking they are running poorly when they may not be, since even if they win, sometimes the software thinks they should, on average, do "better than winning." Is there already a patch for this problem? I played a few $10 + 0.40 DoNs and one of them my all in EV was calculated to be over $27--even with ICM etc this can't be right... can it?

morny
05-14-2009, 06:34 PM
Escalated to Mike, hell respond asap

yngwiescruggs
05-14-2009, 07:07 PM
thanks, also I got a couple EV won that were negative as well..

Mike chops
05-14-2009, 08:18 PM
There's no reason why the ICM luck can't be more than the buyin. The ICM EV only calculates one part of the variance in poker.

If you run like god and win every all-in coin flip, but get coolered and bust with KK vs AA, your "all-in ev luck" will be high, even though most people would say you were unlucky over all. That's because your "cooler luck" more than cancelled the "all-in ev luck".

Unfortunately "cooler luck" is impossible for us to calculate. We just give you what we can calculate.