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View Full Version : 4 players on Flop is not considered a blind steal ?



Spec
03-24-2011, 05:47 AM
When CO raises, BT cold calls, SB completes and BB also completes why is this not considered a blind steal ?

When I do:
- In BB and Steal Attempted = True
- Players on flop = 4

I always get zero hands.

This was in fact a steal from CO, no matter how many people called afterwards...

netsrak
03-24-2011, 09:53 AM
We need to reproduce this.
Please zip and mail the original handhistory files (you find them in the HM archive folder or in the handhistory folder of your poker client) together with a link to this thread and an explanation of the problem to support@holdemmanager.net. We will then try to reproduce the problem.

Spec
03-24-2011, 10:30 AM
Just sent you 5 sample hands that don't show up with this filter (although should IMO).

Patvs
03-27-2011, 08:11 PM
I imported the hands you sent.

3 hands show up using the filter:
"In tab 'More filters' select Players on Flop is Equal to 4
In tab 'Main filters' put a tick in Position = Big Blind and a tick in Position of First Raiser = Cutoff


I tested it using SQL 8.4.7 and 9.0.3.
Can you reimport the hands into a new database?

Spec
03-27-2011, 09:56 PM
That works Patvs.

However this was not the purpose of my post. I want to filter Blind Steals.

If you agree that in the hands I sent you we have a steal from CO (everybody folded to the CO who raised), then they should appear if you filter (in tab "More filters"):

- In BB and Steal Attempted
- Players on Flop is Equal to 4

Can you please check if they show up ? I doubt.

Also please note that your suggestion may not be a steal (which is what I want to filter).

Imagine that UTG limps, UTG+1 also limps, CO raises (he's the first to raise), BB completes, as well as UTG and UTG+1. This is 4 players on flop but it's definitely not a steal.

Patvs
03-28-2011, 02:41 AM
Instead of - In BB and Steal Attempted
Use In BB and Steal Defended = False and the hands show up.

It's no an ideal solution since some other hands show up too (where there was no steal, or when you reraise, etc.... your "Position of First Raiser CO filter" was better) but the hands you want show up.
Out of 504 hands you sent... in only 3 raised by Cutoff hands four players saw a flop... and in NONE of those hands there were UTG/UTG+1 limpers.


So although there's definitely a bug with the filters (In BB and Steal Attempted + 4 players--> wrongly resulting in no hands) though I don't see the importance.
The filter seems to work for 3 players.

And for 4 players... those hands are also rare. Just use the "Position of First Raiser CO filter" that also includes those hands. Then manually go over the hands.

Spec
03-28-2011, 03:23 AM
Patvs, that solution is not a solution.

I know exactly how to display those hands. But I want them displayed as a result of a specific filter and not turning around with something not appropriate (we're talking about blind steal).

Furthermore and about your comments you are completely underestimating the issue, comparing 3 hands with the total universe of 504 played hands in all positions. Any specific filter that you use over 504 hands will, inevitably, return a very small number of hands.

Just to show how much you are underestimating:

1. In the sample I sent please do
- In BB and steal attempted
- First raiser = CO

You will see 11 hands.

However none of them are the 3 hands I highlighted, meaning that they should be 14 hands.

HM is thus missing 3/14 = 21.4% of the hands !


2. The whole picture is not so bad but still significant:

This year I have 39.264 hands in BB.
If I filter In BB and steal attempted I get 11.872
If I chose CO = first raiser that goes 3.625 (we know that here we don't get all hands so how many are the missing ones ?)

To try to find out I do another filter with number of players = 4 and first raiser = CO and I get 390 hands.

Let's say that 30% of those 390 hands are not steals because they had limpers before the CO. It's still 273 hands not included in the previous filter.

This means that those 3.625 hands should in fact be 3.898 hands, meaning an error of 7%.

Enough for deserve some attention from HM developers, IMHO.

Patvs
03-28-2011, 09:30 PM
I created a bug ticket and sent it to the programmers.
Ticket number is #1070 "In BB Steal Attempt/Players On Flop Filter Bug".

Spec
01-13-2012, 11:14 AM
What's the status of this ? The problem subsists

Patvs
01-13-2012, 07:04 PM
The ticket was closed (unfixed) by the programmers (first time I've seen that tag)
It was classified as "currently not important enough to fix"

Patvs
01-13-2012, 07:13 PM
I should add, I'm partially to blame for this. I wrote up the report, which the programmers, after input from other HM staff, then closed.

I wrote:

User plays 6 max, Fixed Limit.
He's filtering out hands where four players see a flop.
The Steal Attempted filter is flawed, since it also includes hands where for example the UTG player limps. (and he only wants real steal hands, where the cutoff is first to act)

Out of his 504 hands he sent... only 3 hands four players saw a flop... but in NONE of those hands there were limpers.

Also the flawed filter (In BB and Steal Attempted) actually works for 3 players on flop. It only doesn't work for 4.