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View Full Version : 3 and 4-bet stats right?



Self Made
01-13-2009, 12:13 AM
Isn't timwilljoe's raise below a 4-bet?

***** Hand History for Game 1486116891 *****
$100.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Sunday, January 11, 12:24:52 ET 2009
Table Yankee Stadium (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Seat 1: Sabine20 ( $251.50 USD )
Seat 2: vellocet ( $92.50 USD )
Seat 3: idoalotofdrugs ( $98.50 USD )
Seat 4: ShanghaiTang ( $66.75 USD )
Seat 5: timwilljoe ( $172.50 USD )
Seat 6: AK reppin LA ( $35.00 USD )
Seat 7: randylo ( $231.00 USD )
Seat 8: howards friend ( $26.50 USD )
Seat 9: Self Made ( $118.50 USD )
ShanghaiTang posts small blind [$0.50 USD].
timwilljoe posts big blind [$1.00 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Self Made [ Js Jh ]
AK reppin LA folds
randylo calls [$1.00 USD]
howards friend raises [$4.50 USD]
Self Made raises [$8.00 USD]
vellocet folds
idoalotofdrugs folds
ShanghaiTang folds
timwilljoe raises [$10.50 USD]
randylo folds
howards friend folds
Self Made calls [$3.50 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2d, 9h, 8h ]
timwilljoe checks
Self Made bets [$18.00 USD]
timwilljoe raises [$36.00 USD]
Self Made folds
timwilljoe wins $18.00 USD
timwilljoe wins $62.00 USD from main pot

While playing I thought I saw timwilljoe 3-betting, but didn't see the reraise reflected in his stats. In reviewing my play I came across the above hand. Isn't he 4-betting? It shows he 4 bets 0% of the time however.

morny
01-13-2009, 12:17 PM
No, Its actually counted under the raise 2 raiser stats. Its better to seperate this from a 4bet as its a completely different scenario when someone 4bets cold like this, youll rarely ever see a TAG raise 2 raisers here light but 4betting light when 2 tags have history is alot more common.

Self Made
01-13-2009, 10:33 PM
I'm not sure I get that. So you're saying Self Made is 3-betting, but when timwilljoe reraises him he's just 2-betting (raising)? I thought I understood the definitions, below. I thought 3-bet was just a second raise and 4-bet was just a third raise. Doesn't that make sense, given that this terminology was based on limit poker, and the 3rd raise was a cap, or 4th bet?

3-bet definition (http://www.holdemmanager.net/faq/afmviewfaq.aspx?faqid=155):

This refers to preflop only where someone re-raises a raise.

4-bet definition:

When someone re-raises a 3bet (See 3bet for more details)

Self Made
01-13-2009, 10:34 PM
when someone 4bets cold like this

You seem to be calling it a 4-bet yourself.

Didn't timwilljoe re-raise a 3bet (the 4-bet definition)?

Are you saying it's always just a raise unless it's the same two players raising back and forth, and that only in that case do you call it a 4-bet?

Al1
01-13-2009, 11:12 PM
To summarize a little:

Preflop:
Player A raise, this is a 2bet. We just say a raise generally.
If Player B raise this raise, he is 3betting.
If Player C raises the 3bet, he is 4-betting.
Etc...

But, a 4-bet can be made very differently:

1) the 4bettor is a third guy
2) the 4bettor is the original raiser (2bet)

In the case 1), you can be sure that almost all the time the 4bet range of the third guy is a monster => Collecting information in those case is not useful

In the case 2), the 4bet range is generally more "metagame" dependant, especially if there is some history between players etc... => Here it is useful to calculate the 4bet range

HEM works like that. The 4bet stat is affected when the original raiser is 4betting the 3bettor. Mixing case 1) and 2) would just tighten up the whole stat and you would lose the information about the metagame.

Another stat works like that: the fold to 3bet.
When you 3bet a raiser, you want to know how this raiser reacts to a 3bet. It isn't interesting to know how a player who hasn't acted will react when he faces a 3bet. That's why the fold to 3bet stat is only affecting the guy who has raised and not the other players.

PT3 doesn't take that in consideration and calculate folds to 3bet for every players facing a 3bet, and I believe it's the same for the 4bet stat. If you do like that, the fold to 3bet will be just almost allways very high like 80%+ (because a player who face two raises fold a very high % of the time, tightening up the whole "fold to 3bet" stat. You will lose so much info, like if the original raiser is a light 3bet caller), this is just uninformational...

For more about that: http://208.109.95.123/forum/showthread.php?t=4950

Self Made
01-13-2009, 11:23 PM
The 3-bet stuff makes sense to me, but I think the 4-bet explanation needs to be added to the stat definitions. Thanks for the explanation.