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helpthehud
11-02-2014, 08:53 PM
Hi,

please help me out. Can anyone share the Harringtons configuration as he describes in 'Dan Harrington on Online Cash games - 6 max'? Massive thanks in advance.

helpthehud
11-02-2014, 08:56 PM
Hi,

please help me out. I still run HM1 and i'm asking for help here. Can anyone please share the Harringtons configuration as he describes in 'Dan Harrington on Online Cash games - 6 max'? Massive thanks in advance.

_Loki_
11-02-2014, 10:05 PM
EDIT:- LOOKING AT OTHER POST IN HM2 SECTION I SEE IT'S FOR HM1...


Can anyone share the Harringtons configuration as he describes in 'Dan Harrington on Online Cash games - 6 max'? Massive thanks in advance.

You've posted this request in two places HM1 [here] & the current s/ware forum HM2
Which HM is the HUD for?

_Loki_
11-02-2014, 10:27 PM
Anyway. I just looked at my copy & I see there's a few HUDs suggested depending.... which page HUD interests you from those discussed [around pp118]? Can't you just build one from the descriptions?

helpthehud
11-03-2014, 08:18 AM
Anyway. I just looked at my copy & I see there's a few HUDs suggested depending.... which page HUD interests you from those discussed [around pp118]? Can't you just build one from the descriptions?

Hey Loki, i'm looking for the 'A Very Detailed HUD' on the bottom of page 118. I tried to build one myself but it took me sooo long just to build a few stats with colours. I was hoping i could import one so i could spent more time in reading the book and playing. I've got HM1.

Patvs
11-03-2014, 08:41 PM
Harrington actually discusses three different HUDs in his book:

A Minimal HUD: (2 line)

Name / # Hands / winrate

VPIP / PFR / AF

--

More Useful HUD (3 line):

Name / # Hands / winrate

VPIP / PFR / Steal Attempt / Fold Big Blind to Steal

AF / Flop AF / Turn AF / River AF / C-bet / Fold to C-bet


--


A Very Detailed HUD (5 line):

Name / # Hands / winrate

VPIP / PFR / Steal Attempt / Fold Big Blind to Steal

3-bet / Fold to 3-bet / AF / Flop AF / Turn AF / River AF

C-bet / Fold to C-bet / Fold to Turn C-bet

Won when seen flop (W$F) / Went to Showdown / Won at Showdown

helpthehud
11-03-2014, 09:05 PM
Anyway. I just looked at my copy & I see there's a few HUDs suggested depending.... which page HUD interests you from those discussed [around pp118]? Can't you just build one from the descriptions?

Loki, could you sent me this HUD?

_Loki_
11-04-2014, 02:27 AM
** I use HM2 - if I had the Harrington HUD [I don't] - I don't know if it imports into HM1
** Harrington uses a Poker Tracker HUD of 19 stats on 5 lines [as per Patrick's reply to you]
** Harrington's HUD is great & still applicable, but an old Harrington HUD supplied by someone else will not suit you, because...

[1] His ranges are 4.5 years old so they'll need a major adjustment for the more aggressive, thinking villains of today
[2] When you have big enough samples, you'll want to add 4Bet stats & squeeze stats in my opinion
[3] 3Betting, Continuation Betting & Stealing stats in 6-max [or FR] are way different as the stakes increase

If I were you & wanted that HUD. I'd simply build it in less than an hour & use it without colours - then construct some ranges from a sample of the big winning/big losing players on my database - players for which I have at least 5k hands so I can be fairly sure what player type each one is.

Hope that helps

P.S. My own primary cash 6Max HUD is for Zoom where there's maybe 200-400 players at any time with around 20% of them being 4-tabling nits who only play AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, TT & mid-pairs that flop sets/full houses. The turnover of players is pretty amazing with people wandering in at the weekend when they get bored out of their minds playing a ridiculous 6 to 12 hour tourney.

So the Harrington HUD needs big changes for all of that - most of the solid profit is from stealing [& re-stealing] + re-raising OOP an insane amount from the SB/BB - totally different to regular cash tables. I have more steal/fold to steal/re-steal stats [by position]
Don't bother so much with continuation bet stats because sample size too small except for the grinders - they are predictable post flop anyway.

helpthehud
11-04-2014, 12:38 PM
Thanks Loki, your comments make sense. His ranges are definitely outdated. Btw i only play 6max cash, no zoom. I'll create a HUD without colours and try to built an image of how the ranges are these days.

_Loki_
11-04-2014, 01:27 PM
Thanks Loki, your comments make sense. His ranges are definitely outdated. Btw I only play 6max cash, no zoom. I'll create a HUD without colours and try to built an image of how the ranges are these days. I can't easily play 6-max cash regular these days - it's too slow after Zoom. With the hotkeys built into the PokerStars client I'm playing 290 hands per hour per table which is triple a regular table. Also at Zoom one can be more "creative" because it's one large pool - most players don't remember if you're a nit or a raging loony [especially if you don't use an avatar, turn off your VIP status display, have a boring screen name & disable other players being able to search for you]. Another advantage of Zoom is you can open min bet/raise OOP postflop profitably all day - people just fold 70% of the time. This min betting saves a lot of money in the long run because it's easier to pot control on later streets when you meet resistance. Can't do that when you have the same 5 people looking at your actions :)

helpthehud
11-05-2014, 12:59 PM
I can't easily play 6-max cash regular these days - it's too slow after Zoom. With the hotkeys built into the PokerStars client I'm playing 290 hands per hour per table which is triple a regular table. Also at Zoom one can be more "creative" because it's one large pool - most players don't remember if you're a nit or a raging loony [especially if you don't use an avatar, turn off your VIP status display, have a boring screen name & disable other players being able to search for you]. Another advantage of Zoom is you can open min bet/raise OOP postflop profitably all day - people just fold 70% of the time. This min betting saves a lot of money in the long run because it's easier to pot control on later streets when you meet resistance. Can't do that when you have the same 5 people looking at your actions :)

Oke that's interesting. I haven't played cash games in a few year and now i'm playing them since a few months. I notice at 6max that, even at the micro stakes like NL10, it has become much thougher. The days with tables full 40/3 guys are completely over. If you find a table with 2 fishes and 3 regulars it's a very good table. How soft is Zoom these days Loki? Compared to 6max?

_Loki_
11-05-2014, 06:50 PM
...tables full 40/3 guys are completely over. If you find a table with 2 fishes and 3 regulars it's a very good table. How soft is Zoom these days Loki? Compared to 6max?

You are asking the wrong question! The short answer is...
There will always be 40/3 guys playing at all sites, but YOU will not get the chance to exploit them at regular tables. Here is why...

REGULAR 6-MAX:-
9pm today [my time] at PokerStars. For all stakes NLHE 6-Max cash [Regular, CAP, Deep+Ante] there's 1,200 tables running.
[a] 120 Have one or more empty seats
[b] 540 Are full with nobody waiting to join
[c] 480 Are full & have between 1 & 5 players waiting to join.
[d] 60 Are full & have have between 6 & 24 players waiting to join!

Category [d] Is mostly when a known fish/whale sits [or a stranger] the sharks are there right away with their Datamined or Bought Hand Histories, Notes, HUDs & Waiting/Seating scripts. Most of these sharks will not get a chance to play the fish before he goes bust or leaves. You are wasting your time even thinking about competing with these people. You are losing a lot of value because you're not getting a chance to sit with the 40/3 guys.

ZOOM 6-MAX:-
** No seating/waiting scripts - no "bum hunting"
** Not worth colluding [sharing hole cards at the table] unless you can get a couple of dozen people at least [or bots] working together
** Much less profitable to multi-account unless you've got a team of bots
** More difficult to datamine
** Not much time between hands for manual notes
** Everyone has an equal chance to exploit or be exploited
** But greater value for the intelligent player - because access to fish
** Greater value because it's the sort of game that fish like - fast & can play it on their smart phone/tablet on the train or down the pub!
** More hands per hour without going mad trying to track the actions in a hand

THE FUTURE:-
** A lot more Zoom, Spin&Go type formats where you can't pick your opponents
** Even more game types suitable for tablets/phones
** PokerStars/Full Tilt will try some version of anonymous tables - I'm guessing it will be possible to change your screen name & avatar regularly
** NLHE will become less popular because it's almost solved for HU now & the bots will move in
** Omaha & other high variance games will continue to increase in popularity because they're more fun & even bad players can have a very good session now & then
** I plan to try Omaha & mixed game formats when my bankroll is deep enough. Mixed games should make me "future proof" when NLHE falls over & dies - if I can win at them that is!

helpthehud
11-05-2014, 07:10 PM
You are asking the wrong question! The short answer is...
There will always be 40/3 guys playing at all sites, but YOU will not get the chance to exploit them at regular tables. Here is why...

REGULAR 6-MAX:-
9pm today [my time] at PokerStars. For all stakes NLHE 6-Max cash [Regular, CAP, Deep+Ante] there's 1,200 tables running.
[a] 120 Have one or more empty seats
[b] 540 Are full with nobody waiting to join
[c] 480 Are full & have between 1 & 5 players waiting to join.
[d] 60 Are full & have have between 6 & 24 players waiting to join!

Category [d] Is mostly when a known fish/whale sits [or a stranger] the sharks are there right away with their Datamined or Bought Hand Histories, Notes, HUDs & Waiting/Seating scripts. Most of these sharks will not get a chance to play the fish before he goes bust or leaves. You are wasting your time even thinking about competing with these people. You are losing a lot of value because you're not getting a chance to sit with the 40/3 guys.

ZOOM 6-MAX:-
** No seating/waiting scripts - no "bum hunting"
** Not worth colluding [sharing hole cards at the table] unless you can get a couple of dozen people at least [or bots] working together
** Much less profitable to multi-account unless you've got a team of bots
** More difficult to datamine
** Not much time between hands for manual notes
** Everyone has an equal chance to exploit or be exploited
** But greater value for the intelligent player - because access to fish
** Greater value because it's the sort of game that fish like - fast & can play it on their smart phone/tablet on the train or down the pub!
** More hands per hour without going mad trying to track the actions in a hand

THE FUTURE:-
** A lot more Zoom, Spin&Go type formats where you can't pick your opponents
** Even more game types suitable for tablets/phones
** PokerStars/Full Tilt will try some version of anonymous tables - I'm guessing it will be possible to change your screen name & avatar regularly
** NLHE will become less popular because it's almost solved for HU now & the bots will move in
** Omaha & other high variance games will continue to increase in popularity because they're more fun & even bad players can have a very good session now & then
** I plan to try Omaha & mixed game formats when my bankroll is deep enough. Mixed games should make me "future proof" when NLHE falls over & dies - if I can win at them that is!

Wow some shocking stuff man. So what you're basically saying is don't waist your time on fullring/6max cash games because they will dry up even more, instead of that play Zoom (for example)?
This:
d. 60 Are full & have have between 6 & 24 players waiting to join!
Is true unfortunately. Maybe playing multiple pokercliŽnts at the same time can generate enough action to grind micro's, but i fear for the small stakes+. And is it really that bad with Datamining, waiting/seating scripts and stuff?

Patvs
11-05-2014, 07:51 PM
[d] 60 Are full & have have between 6 & 24 players waiting to join! (is mostly when a known fish/whale sits)

!

With TableScanner (running at x minute intervals), whenever a known fish sits down at a table (without mined hands), TableScanner will auto join that table.

I still make a sport out of it to be able to find these tables and join them when the 'fish' is still there.
One of the biggest flaws in Harrington on Online cashgames is, he mentions 'table selection' is important, but he ignores the fact there already is special table selection software.

helpthehud
11-05-2014, 09:02 PM
With TableScanner (running at x minute intervals), whenever a known fish sits down at a table (without mined hands), TableScanner will auto join that table.

I still make a sport out of it to be able to find these tables and join them when the 'fish' is still there.
One of the biggest flaws in Harrington on Online cashgames is, he mentions 'table selection' is important, but he ignores the fact there already is special table selection software.

Lol it's a though sport. I guess it's even much worse at higher stakes ?

_Loki_
11-06-2014, 02:18 PM
...what you're basically saying is don't waist your time on fullring/6max cash games because they will dry up even more, instead of that play Zoom (for example)? [...] "d. 60 Are full & have have between 6 & 24 players waiting to join!" [...] Maybe playing multiple pokercliŽnts at the same time can generate enough action to grind micro's [...] i fear for the small stakes+ [...] is it really that bad with Datamining, waiting/seating scripts and stuff? If you are treating poker as a business than you have to think as if you are running a small retail outlet. How to make the most profit in the hours your shop is open for the least amount of work. You have x amount of money to invest and so you think carefully about what you should sell before you spend a cent of your BR. The long term ROI for different poker variants varies a great deal - it depends on three things
[1] The difference in ability between the best & worst players in that game at that stake
[2] The software tools available for that particular variant
[3] The rake taken by the site owners & the invisible "rake" taken by thieves

I am going to use GAME SELECTION to illustrate my point:- STT S'n'Gs, DoN S'n'G are the perfect game for colluders. Even the best STT players can't beat colluders - so why would you open a shop at all in an area known to be full of armed robbers & shop lifters? 1,000s of players fell in love with playing DoNs with no thought to the consequences. PokerStars paid out $2M to players cheated by a ring of 50 colluders a few years ago & they have paid out a lot more than that in many smaller cases. PS got rid of DoNs because of this. PokerStars pays $2 million to players affected by Chinese collusion ring (http://aarontodd.casinocitytimes.com/article/pokerstars-pays-$2-million-to-players-affected-by-chinese-collusion-ring-58955)

It is up to you to maximise your bb/100 rate & to have a deep BR. A deep BR means you can play the high variance games some of which have the biggest bb/100 in poker. It seems crazy to me to play NLHE when there are other games with a bigger difference in skill edge between top 20% & bottom 20% of players. Why not have some pain for three months learning a new game if it means you can triple your bb/100 in the long run?

Some sites have their own bots [it's in their ToS] because otherwise they couldn't fill their tables & attract depositors. Bots are probably not a big problem now, but it is wise to think ahead - avoid the simple games with 40bb-100bb stacks & try to learn something much less beatable by bots such as 250bb PLO. Playing against a bot is probably profitable but playing against a network of colluding bots will bust you. It is bot collusion, multi-tabling regs [& seating scripts] that is forcing all the sites to move to anon tables & invisible lobbies - they need to look after their net depositor recreational players.

The higher you play the smaller the skill edge gap, the larger the risk of ruin & the larger the potential profit. Therefore the higher you go the more likely it is you'll run into scams & cheating - it's an obvious move for the top players to form groups that share HHs for "study purposes"

_Loki_
11-06-2014, 02:38 PM
PokerStars Introducing Zoom-Only High-Stakes Games to "Remove Predatory Environment" | PokerNews (http://www.pokernews.com/news/2013/12/pokerstars-introducing-zoom-only-high-stakes-games-17068.htm)

helpthehud
11-06-2014, 04:09 PM
If you are treating poker as a business than you have to think as if you are running a small retail outlet. How to make the most profit in the hours your shop is open for the least amount of work. You have x amount of money to invest and so you think carefully about what you should sell before you spend a cent of your BR. The long term ROI for different poker variants varies a great deal - it depends on three things
[1] The difference in ability between the best & worst players in that game at that stake
[2] The software tools available for that particular variant
[3] The rake taken by the site owners & the invisible "rake" taken by thieves

I am going to use GAME SELECTION to illustrate my point:- STT S'n'Gs, DoN S'n'G are the perfect game for colluders. Even the best STT players can't beat colluders - so why would you open a shop at all in an area known to be full of armed robbers & shop lifters? 1,000s of players fell in love with playing DoNs with no thought to the consequences. PokerStars paid out $2M to players cheated by a ring of 50 colluders a few years ago & they have paid out a lot more than that in many smaller cases. PS got rid of DoNs because of this. PokerStars pays $2 million to players affected by Chinese collusion ring (http://aarontodd.casinocitytimes.com/article/pokerstars-pays-$2-million-to-players-affected-by-chinese-collusion-ring-58955)

It is up to you to maximise your bb/100 rate & to have a deep BR. A deep BR means you can play the high variance games some of which have the biggest bb/100 in poker. It seems crazy to me to play NLHE when there are other games with a bigger difference in skill edge between top 20% & bottom 20% of players. Why not have some pain for three months learning a new game if it means you can triple your bb/100 in the long run?

Some sites have their own bots [it's in their ToS] because otherwise they couldn't fill their tables & attract depositors. Bots are probably not a big problem now, but it is wise to think ahead - avoid the simple games with 40bb-100bb stacks & try to learn something much less beatable by bots such as 250bb PLO. Playing against a bot is probably profitable but playing against a network of colluding bots will bust you. It is bot collusion, multi-tabling regs [& seating scripts] that is forcing all the sites to move to anon tables & invisible lobbies - they need to look after their net depositor recreational players.

The higher you play the smaller the skill edge gap, the larger the risk of ruin & the larger the potential profit. Therefore the higher you go the more likely it is you'll run into scams & cheating - it's an obvious move for the top players to form groups that share HHs for "study purposes"

Makes sense again. How hard is it to learn for example PLO if you've got basic/good understanding of NLHE. Does it requires completely other concepts or is it more a matter of adaption?

_Loki_
11-06-2014, 05:12 PM
How hard is it to learn for example PLO if you've got basic/good understanding of NLHE

Basic principles of hand rankings, odds, pot control, equity etc. are the same

ACTION
6max table average VPIP is more than double that of NLHE.

MONEY MANAGEMENT & BR
Much higher variance. If you get depressed or tilted by ten losing sessions in a row don't play PLO! I recommend 75bi [Buy In] BR for a beginner & you can reduce that to 50bi once you're competant. So that's an absolute minimum $100 BR for 1c/2c & you move up to 2c/5c when you have $250 BR. If you try PLO deep stack + ante then you need $250 BR at the micro 1c/2c. Compare that with 1c/2c NLHE where a short stacker only needs around $20 BR

RAKE
PLO table VPIP is more than double NLHE. You need to enter more hands to win. You need to stay in them more often post flop. So your rake per hand shoots up compared with NLHE. You can't steal blinds hardly at all especially in Deep Stack. So the rake is brutal - especially at the micro/small. But there's loads of bad players & the game is fun!

RANGES & HAND SELECTION
The nut hand changes on every street. Nightmare!

GRINDING
I don't really know this. I hate grinding. Will not play more than three tables ever. PLO will not be "solved" in our lifetime. NLHE players tend to overvalue marginal hands in PLO.