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View Full Version : 1st Raise vs. Limp Possibilities



TierTier
12-08-2008, 04:38 PM
To make sure I am understanding both of these stats correctly...

According to the FAQ, 1st raise includes when you are the first raiser in the pot (IE, no 3bets) and it doesn't include raising limpers. So..it's when you are facing an unraised pot and you raise, rather than limping or folding. In contrat, limp refers to when someone just calls in an unopened pot, rather than raising or folding.

Then why do people in my database that I have less than 100 instances of these stats on show different sample sizes in parenthesis?

If someone raised in front and I raise, it's a 3bet, not a 1st raise.
If someone limped in front, and I raise, then by definition I am not 1st raising.

*If someone limps in front ,and I call, is this considered an unopened pot???*
If someone raises in front, and I opt to call, it's an open call

I see that is being the only possibility. Or, am I missing something else?

morny
12-08-2008, 06:00 PM
If someone raised in front and I raise, it's a 3bet, not a 1st raise.

If someone limped in front, and I raise, then by definition I am not 1st raising.

Yes thats correct


If someone raises in front, and I opt to call, it's an open call


yes thats the Call Open stat

TierTier
12-09-2008, 10:50 AM
Let me rephrase...

When a person is faced with an unopened pot, they have one of three choice: limp, 1st raise, fold.

Of the three, two of these represent what they do when they decide to enter an unopened pot; limp and first raise.

So, shouldn't these two always have the same sample size? If they are not supposed to I'm misunderstanding some definition.

In my DB there are instances where an individual has a higher sample size for limping rather than 1st raising. How is this possible?

morny
12-09-2008, 06:52 PM
Raise first dosent include limpers so in the situation where there was a limp in front of us we can limp but we cant raise 1st so thats where the difference would be. If you were filtering just unopened pots then this should be the same sample unless there is something im not considering but its late and maybe my brain isnt running at full steam but overall the 1st raise and limp stats will have 2 different situations regarding the action theyre facing i.e unopened pots and limped pots.

Edit// ive just noticed that limp refers to unopened pots aswell and it appears your correct, ill ask mike to verify but it looks like limp also includes where you overlimp and not just unopened pots

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Mike read below here for summary

Raise First
Raise First is similar to Pre Flop Raise except it doesn’t include 3bets as its only the 1st person to raise that has their Raise First stat effected and it doesnt include raising limpers.

Limp
Where someone just calls in an unopened pot rather than raise or fold.

If these are correct then if your faced with an unopened pot you should have the same sample size in the hud for both stats however limped has more of a sample size so it looks like it includes unopened and limped pots. Let me know so i can update the FAQ

TierTier
12-09-2008, 07:50 PM
If I might be so bold...if it isn't a big job to change the stat to match the FAQ that might be the preferable choice.

If it was calculated how it was defined then a view of EP-->BB and the relative proportions of limp vs. 1st raise is very helpful.

Otherwise, if call-open is a subpopulation of limp the limp stat isn't all that helpful. Separating the two allows us to zero in on the type of player who likes to limp in first (which, is typically horrible) vs. those who call too much.