HUD VPIP bug?

[Veteran68]

So... I had just sat down to a Stars SnG and been dealt in a few hands. I look down at my hero stats and see this pretty strange VPIP of 33. This is after 4 hands, indicated by the number on the first row after the notes icon.

http://morrisonline.us/pics/poker/weird_hud_vpip.png

Not sure how I could have played 1.33 hands, lol. After 4 hands, the only possible values are 0, 25, 50, 75, and 100.

[netsrak]

If you played a hand in the BB and got a walk this hand is counted but not used for VPIP

[Veteran68]

If you played a hand in the BB and got a walk this hand is counted but not used for VPIP

Ah, well that explains it then. I did get a walk my very first hand. Funny though how I've never noticed this until now, I guess I just wasn't paying as much attention or the number of hands was high enough that it didn't stand out like it did this time.

It does seem strange though. Does the same apply when I just check my option in the BB? That's not a VPIP either, I didn't put any extra money in preflop but it's counted as a hand. If I (say in a HU game) fold one hand, walk one hand, bet out one hand, and check option one hand, that's 1/4 hands that I VPIP'ed either way, so wouldn't 25% still be an accurate VPIP value?

[Veteran68]

If you played a hand in the BB and got a walk this hand is counted but not used for VPIP

I apparently misread your response above. After digesting it, I realized that it actually confirmed how a walk should be counted and did not address the 33% value that I posted about.

First, VPIP is defined as the number of hands you put money in beyond the forced blinds (meaning the BB and SB don't count towards VPIP, unless you call/raise in the SB or raise in the BB) divided by the total number of hands that you have been dealt in. However, every hand you're ever dealt counts towards the divisor of the VPIP equation, whether it's a walk or not. Only if you were NOT counting it (resulting in 3 hands total) could I ever have a 33% VPIP.

You're saying the walk is "counted" which to me means it contributes to the total of 4 hands (as expected). Then you said it doesn't count towards VPIP, which I also agree with, since I didn't voluntarily put any more money in.
If I get a walk on the first hand, my VPIP equation is 0/1 or 0%.
If I call or raise from the SB on the second hand, then my VPIP equation becomes 1/2 or 50%.
If I fold the 3rd hand, my VPIP equation is 1/3 or 33%.
If I fold the 4th hand, it's 1/4 or 25%.
Is that not an accurate understanding of how VPIP is defined? If not, I'd sure like to know how I've totally misunderstood it for all these years, lol. If so, then again I say it is impossible to have a 33% VPIP out of 4 hands. Please explain how if I am incorrect.

[The Minder]

Watching this with interest Vet.

This is either going to result in a "whew, I'm glad we got that sorted out" or "back to the drawing board cos I need to redefine VPIP parameters"

[Veteran68]

LOL, well, I really can't believe they would have such a fundamental error in calculation with their VPIP logic at this late stage in the product life, unless it was a recently introduced error.

After the 3rd hand, 33% VPIP would have been correct. So I'm leaning more towards the possibility that the 4th HH imported and thus was counted. But for whatever reason, either the VPIP calc didn't run, or the HUD only partially updated, showing the correct total hands but not the updated VPIP.

EDIT: I just pulled up the SnG in HEM and replayed the first 5 hands, attempting to reproduce the VPIP calc in the replayer HUD. Unfortunately, the replayer HUD doesn't seem to work with session stats. If I double click the panel, it changes color but zeros out all the stat values and does not update them after replaying several hands. So much for that investigative attempt.

It does however confirm that the action was as I listed above in order from hand #1 to hand #4 (walk, call, fold, fold) and thus could not possibly result in a 33% VPIP as captured in the screenshot in the OP. And it wasn't like I captured it in the split-second middle of a HUD update, between total hands and VPIP. We were well into the 5th hand, I looked down, did a double take and some mental math to confirm it couldn't be right, then fumbled around for the screen capture keys. VPIP didn't change until the next hand, unfortunately I got engrossed in the play and didn't keep an eye on it to see if it corrected itself.

[Veteran68]

Bump for a response on whether or not, and why if so, this was an accurate VPIP calculation...

[Patvs]

Read: http://forums.holdemmanager.com/manager-bugs/41616-vpip-pfr-wrongly-calculated.html

[The Minder]

Ok, so having read roy's response, I now need to get my head around one small issue. Does the rest of the world KNOW that this is the way HM calculates VPIP/PFR and therefore a statement like "A TAG player has a VIP somewhere in the 15-22% range" still make sense? Or does it not matter due to data convergence?

[Veteran68]

Read: http://forums.holdemmanager.com/manager-bugs/41616-vpip-pfr-wrongly-calculated.html

Thanks, Pat. So, in that thread Roy says...


When the action is folded to you in the big blind it counts as a hand but does not count towards the VPIP/PFR. So, for example, if you have 5 hands in the BB and you raise once, call once and it is folded to you 2 times then your VPIP is actually 2/3 = 66.7% not 2/5 40% because out of the 3 times you could have played you did VPIP 2 times.

Roy

...which is what netsrak said above. So at least you guys are consistent. :)

However, I'm still not settled, so bear with me.
Roy seems to give an incomplete example, by only providing 4 actions ("raise once, call once, and it is folded to you 2 times") to the 5 hands dealt in the BB. He says the 2 walks don't count so the VPIP calculation is 2/3. What is the 3rd action being counted then? I'll assume this is a typo and maybe he left out a check action?
Is this a HEM thing? I've never heard that a BB walk is calculated any different than a BB check or fold. Why would it be? None of them voluntarily put money in, but to my knowledge all should be accounted for in VPIP by adding 0 to the numerator and +1 to the denominator. Is it strictly based on there being no decision to make (check/call/raise/fold) for a walk?
Both of you said "it counts as a hand" therefore how does it not add 1 to the divisor of the VPIP calculation? The divisor of the VPIP calc is the total number of hands dealt, right? I've never heard it described as "the total number of hands where you had a decision to make." And if, like in Roy's statement, you aren't going to count it in the divisor, then why say the hand "is counted?"
Sorry to keep flogging this deceased equine, but I'm a terminology nit and this is bugging me to think I've had it wrong all this time, and apparently so have a lot of people (which helps explain why I've learned it this way).

I'm not going to flatly say you're wrong, but I've not been able to corroborate this definition of VPIP neither through Googling nor asking other players. Is there an explanation or reference that spells this out somewhere?

Have any of you other players heard this and/or agree with it?

[The Minder]

I'm not going to flatly say you're wrong, but I've not been able to corroborate this definition...

Totally agree with you Vet. My concern is that there may be a case that not everyone is playing from the same piece of sheet music. Personally, I don't care what the tune is so long as we all agree on it before we fire up the band.

If there is a disconnect, the 6-max folks are going to be bent right out of shape compared to the FR guys as the cumulative 'discrepancy' will be far greater..

[Deco]

No-one mentions what is done when the BB checks their option.
HM mods would this sum things up right?

BB checks option: Nothing goes towards VPIP but it does count as a hand played
Folds to BB: Nothing goes towards VPIP or PFR but it does count as a hand played
BB Calls a raise: Counts towards VPIP & PFR, counts as a hand played
BB Raises: Counts towards VPIP and PFR, counts as a hand played.

Does 3betting count as a PFR?
Does checking your BB count towards your VPIP? or your PFR?

[RDB]

BB checks option: Nothing goes towards VPIP but it does count as a hand played
Correct.

Folds to BB: Nothing goes towards VPIP or PFR but it does count as a hand played
Correct.

BB Calls a raise: Counts towards VPIP & PFR, counts as a hand played
Calling a raise only counts towards VPIP and not PFR.

BB Raises: Counts towards VPIP and PFR, counts as a hand played.
Correct.

Does 3betting count as a PFR?
Yes.

Does checking your BB count towards your VPIP? or your PFR?
No.

[Deco]

Thanks, great reply.



BB Calls a raise: Counts towards VPIP & PFR, counts as a hand played




Calling a raise only counts towards VPIP and not PFR.


Only one I've slipped up on. The BB has the chance to make a preflopraise so I figured it should count. However the option to fold has been removed so I guess this could effect a users choice to raise.


Are these rules shared universally? (Pokertracker Poker office etc use them)

[Patvs]

These rules aren't universal.
We at least changed/tweaked the rules once in the past three years: for example where a walk counts as a hand played, but doesn't count towards VPIP, which was decided is more fair.