View Full Version : 4bet range Wrong for Headsup NL

01-21-2011, 02:15 PM
The stats definition for 4bet range is total pf raise * 4bet %, is this some sort of gross estimation for a 6max game? Because I believe the 4bet range stats is completely off for headsup.

My main reasoning is that in Headsup you can only 4bet from one position, namely the Button, and including ur PFR in the BB will produce an incorrect number. Can you confirm this? How is the equation of tot pf raise * 4bet% give you a 4bet range, is this a guestimation or some sort of mathematical short cut you are using.

Can you please confirm if the following is a correct way to calculate a 4bet range:
In a headsup session, let's say I open 89%, villain 3bet 13% and I 4bet 8%.
89% * 13% * 8% = 0.9%, a 4bet range of 0.9%, if this is wrong what is wrong with it?

The HUD 4bet range gives me 4.1%. The difference between the two numbers is pretty big, however the funny thing is that the 4bet range of 4.1% is actually alot closer to my real 4betting range during that session. That is what has been confusing me.

01-22-2011, 12:24 PM
Total PFR multiplied by Total 4bet %.. The thing to keep in mind is that most 4bet situations will involve later positions and PFR and 4bet % will be higher from late position than the overall PFR and 4bet would be.

The above statement applies to 6max+ but for HU it should be accurate. lets take an example.

Lets say for example you open 20%, this is approx 66+,A4s+,K8s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A9o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo if we assume he opens the top 20% which probably isnt true but it will make the calculation easier.

Now if he 4bet is 8% then this means he 4bets 8% of that 20% i quoted, that would be 1.6% which means his 4bet range) again assuming for the ease of calculation that he only 4bets the top of his range) is 1.6% or AA-QQ

Now in 6max at least most TAGs with a PFR of 20% will be in a late position, so their PFR will in fact be closer to 30% in late position and when facing a 3bet if there overall 4bet % was 8% in late position that probably equates to 10%, so 30% * 10% = 99+,AKs which would be more like a 20% 4bet range in late position which is why my original statement says its not really accurate for 6max, im not a HU player but since there is no late/middle/early position i presume it should be reasonably accurate.

We have plans to update it to work better for 6max. Hope that answers your question, one other thing though is most TAGs wont do this the top of their range, theyll have some junk, s/c, small pairs in their range and they are unlikely to have 99-TT in their range in most cases as they are just turning them into bluffs basically so this is something you should factor in

01-23-2011, 01:55 PM
I understand what you are saying.

My message in the original post is this: in Headsup poker you can only 4 bet from the SB, you can never 4 bet from the BB. Therefore wouldn't it make sense to calculate the 4bet range as SB pfr * 4bet %, as opposed to Total pfr * 4bet%.

Here is an example from my HUD for a HU session, my SB pfr is 71%, my BB pfr is 11%, my Total pft is 45%. How is this 45% calculated, could you give me the formula?


Please check the formulas for the different stats in this thread

When I click the link it gives me page not found. Can you send me a working link or send me the info?


01-24-2011, 05:42 AM
Formulas for every HM Stat! (Updated Nov 12, 2009) - Holdem Manager Forums (http://forums.holdemmanager.com/showthread.php?t=3595)
Questions regarding "3-bet vs." stats - Holdem Manager Forums (http://forums.holdemmanager.com/showthread.php?t=10810)