Complaint 150$/year tread [Archive] - Holdem Manager Forums

spoutnic

05-16-2013, 01:33 PM

Hi,

I have been a loyal custumer of many hm programs and happy up to now. This 150$/ year is unacceptable. It goes from 60$ lifetime to 150$/year... And you stop tn 1 support. If only you used this extra money making by happy custumer who thinks tn2 is that much of an upgrade to still have tn1 running well.

You lost a lot of respect i had for you in the same way Phil Galfond did when he opened runitonce. Its raping prices, no less.

I hope you revise your pricing. To be constructive, i think 80$/year makes sens or 150$ lifetime.

kauz

05-16-2013, 03:32 PM

Have to agree here. TN2 is not a major program. If you compare it to other programs and their prices it is kind of ridiculous.

Iam a loyal customer of HEM and many apps as well but that price is unaccepatble.
Also if you consider that Poker Softwares have gotten better over the years and now provide many features already that we used to have with TN only..

Anything more than the same price as TN1 is a total ripoff in my humble opinion.. Unless you explain to me how you justify this insane price.

SoooTilted

05-16-2013, 09:15 PM

+2 on this and its missing some of the important features i use in HEM1 as well

HossendeHaai

05-16-2013, 09:29 PM

+1

Pricing is clueless compared to other poker and HM2 software. When HM2 and Notecaddy cost the same for a lifetime as TableNinja for a year, something is seriously wrong here. It may be a nice program, but it's not that special TBH.

I suggest the guys at TableNinja get their act together and fix this ASAP.

HM2 isn't fully to blame. TableNinja is a seperate company, HM2 gets part of the profit.

MartinBKK

05-17-2013, 12:20 AM

+1. Absolutely disgusting whats going on here. I hope TN2 is a MASSIVE fail.

fiammaz

05-17-2013, 02:15 AM

Another way to pick some money... like HM apps
Just a comment: LOL

peanutman

05-17-2013, 05:35 AM

+1

IMHO it will offer little visible improvement over TableNinja 1, yet they seem to be trying hard to push everyone to the subscription-based TableNinja 2. The motivation behind the subscription-based model is 100% economical, and they're not even trying to hide it. I wouldn't be surprised if they soon shut down the activation server for TN1 in order to force people to get TN2.

lincristian

05-17-2013, 06:03 AM

please correct me if i am wrong ,i remember tn1 is flife time ,so can they shut down the service just like that ?
what is the meaning of life time ? in that way ?

HossendeHaai

05-17-2013, 06:27 AM

please correct me if i am wrong ,i remember tn1 is flife time ,so can they shut down the service just like that ?
what is the meaning of life time ? in that way ?

Depends on the law that that applies. If they'd suddenly stop updating TN1, that would be illegal where i'm from. On the other side you can't expect lifetime to be truly lifetime. Guess they at least have to keep updating for a year or so after they announce it's going out of service.

Also check out this from the TN website:

Q: What happens to TableNinja when PokerStars® updates their software?

A: TableNinja is designed to be as robust as possible, however some updates to the PokerStars® software may result in TableNinja no longer functioning correctly. We will add any updates to TableNinja to the website as soon as they are complete and they will be available to anyone who has purchased a valid license with access to updates

peanutman

05-17-2013, 06:34 AM

The TN2 announcement email says:

We will stop releasing updates to TableNinja (v1) on August 15th, 2013. We cannot guarantee TableNinja (v1) will continue to work after this date. For this reason, we don't recommend you continue to use TableNinja (v1) after August 15th, 2013.

It's vague, and open for interpretation. It can mean that they won't update it for new OS version which will cause it to stop working at some point. It can also mean that "they won't have the funds" to maintain the activation server anymore, which means you won't be able to legally activate your TN1 with your serial. In theory they can force TN1 users to TN2 like this.

HossendeHaai

05-17-2013, 08:14 AM

The TN2 announcement email says:

It's vague, and open for interpretation. It can mean that they won't update it for new OS version which will cause it to stop working at some point. It can also mean that "they won't have the funds" to maintain the activation server anymore, which means you won't be able to legally activate your TN1 with your serial. In theory they can force TN1 users to TN2 like this.

Intentionally shutting down the activation server just months after they stopped selling a lifetime product would be plain fraud. I don't they'll have the guts to pull that off.

MartinBKK

05-17-2013, 08:41 AM

I paid USD 100 for TNFT and TNPS and during most of this time FT wasn't running. After it did relaunch TNFT has not been functioning correctly for months. I have found the support to be less than helpful on top. Just check out the 2+2 threads. As compensation i am entitled to 4 months free TN2. That must be a joke right?

There is no way i will be purchasing TN2. Plenty of other products out there that i purchased before TN1 and are still functioning perfectly with excellent support. As i stated earlier i very much hope this kind of business practice is a massive fail.

sideshow

05-17-2013, 11:07 AM

Hi,

Based on the community feedback, we decided to remove the maximum 8 table limit from the standard version of TN2.

As always, our top priority for TableNinja is the quality of the player experience so for now we are focused on feature requests and bug reports. However if you guys have additional feedback on the details of the pro/standard split we’re always happy to listen. Because all TN1 users have access to the PRO version for 3 months without any cost, commitment or limitations, hopefully none of the limitations with the standard version will be a major problem for anyone in the short term.

Regarding TN2’s subscription model, we know this is a frustrating change but the fact is that since Black Friday and the rise of all the regional clients, the TableNinja 1 business model is not sustainable. We spent a lot of time discussing pricing of TableNinja II and did our best to design a system that allows us to give you full-time support and software development. A one-time fee would not allow us to rapidly respond to poker client updates and continually add new features. Our goal is to help our customers play more profitable poker and we want to keep doing that for years to come. We intend to continue to build out TableNinja II with cross-site support, better table management, and more powerful customization. We will continue to listen to feedback in this thread.

TN Management

HossendeHaai

05-17-2013, 11:16 AM

Tnx for the reply. Seems fair enough. Can you confirm that the TN1 activation server will be up a reasonable time after august 15 though? That's left unanswered.

kauz

05-17-2013, 02:24 PM

Well noone is saying that the subscription model is unreasonable per se. but the price is way too high for my taste.

I mean if this tool costs $20/month, what will HEM3 cost? $100/month?...

In the end this is a tool that many serious online poker player enjoy. but most people only have use for a litte fraction of its functionality that is needed in their games.
So I wouldn't mind paying a couple of bucks a month for my shortcuts and betzising options I enjoy with TN. but $20/month is not reasonable for me.. Thats already triple the price as we payed for TN1.. and thats just for the first year..

spoutnic

05-17-2013, 04:28 PM

Tx everyone for participating. I guess when you decided on the pricing you calculated people not upgrading and getting a different software instead of a price point where most tn1 owners will upgrade without much of a second thought. I still think an 80$/year charges makes a lot of sens. I think a good middle ground between your $ making dreams and the most competitive price you can charge. Anything with 3 digit is just off the chart imho.

For me, the only unavoidable feature is cycle to 1st table in line. It would be nice to have a reasonable tech view of the longevity of this feature after the support ends.

thekabalist

05-17-2013, 07:29 PM

1st i dunno if this is legal....

2nd didnt they realize that with this massive overprice they will lost streight away 20/25% customers that wont upgrdae and after someone will come out with a similar propgram like maybe "table droid" will improve to the same TN level and TN will lose another big chunk of% of customers.....

silly silly move... i mean ahvent u earn enough these years? i think yes......do u want some more money ofc nv but just realese TN2 with some added features and charge "lifetime"again players willing to spend more for a better program!!!THATS WHAT HEM2 DID!!!!

poporella

05-18-2013, 01:30 PM

I use TN since it started and I agree $80/year would be a fair price for the standard version with up to 20 or 30 tables running. I mean the SNG scene is drying out, from what playerpool you wanna get the increase in pricing?

Games become dryer, but the cost to play poker professionally are increasing, does this make any sense?

friedhelm

05-18-2013, 07:09 PM

I don't think that the new Version of TableNinja is stable and feature-rich enough to leave the beta-period right now. There also haven't been added a lot of major functions that are worth paying 150$/license in my opinion.

Little OT:
The TN tile is a very good idea, but the functional diversity is far away from freeware(!) like TOI.
There are too many costly bugs and it can't replace my TOI right now. I hope especially this function to be improved a lot in the future (custom positioning for grid-tables, different ways to move tables to grid, "unseated stack", auto-fill gaps...)
(please take this as a serious suggestion)

Also TN2 is known to be pretty bug-heavy in general. I've tried out TN2 and I'm absolutely sure I can't use it right now. Since I would get 4 months for free it feels like gambling to buy your software right now. How can I be sure to get a useful tool out of this thing within this 4 months?
That said, I agree to OP.

poporella

05-19-2013, 02:31 AM

The TN2 announcement email says:

It's vague, and open for interpretation. It can mean that they won't update it for new OS version which will cause it to stop working at some point. It can also mean that "they won't have the funds" to maintain the activation server anymore, which means you won't be able to legally activate your TN1 with your serial. In theory they can force TN1 users to TN2 like this.

Ya thats the only target they have in mind.
monopoly + update and new terms and conditions = $$$ its disgusting.

But oh well thats the money game we are all stuck in due to constantly increasing capital costs due to compound interest.

So in reality blaming holdem manager to take advantage of the situation is the wrong way. LOL never thought i would put poker and money theory in one post together lool

spoutnic

05-19-2013, 09:41 AM

Cant blame a compagny to be greedy. True. But we have the power by directing our money elsewhere. Tn is not one of its kind. One other i looked at seems like a pretty good option with a 2 digit 1 shot payment.

But Im not here to promote competitor. My goal is to reason with sideshow/tn team. Have them back to reality. 3 digit pricing is just too big. People using tn are usually educated kind that read poker forums. Or have a friend reading them.

I think tn team still have time to clean this up. Put a decent pricing. Show some sens.

spoutnic

05-19-2013, 11:01 AM

Just to keep discussion going, im sure tn1 owners are willing to pay REASONNABLE yearly fees to keep it updated. How about that?

HossendeHaai

05-19-2013, 11:04 AM

Tnx for the reply. Seems fair enough. Can you confirm that the TN1 activation server will be up a reasonable time after august 15 though? That's left unanswered.

^^

thekabalist

05-19-2013, 05:13 PM

Just to keep discussion going, im sure tn1 owners are willing to pay REASONNABLE yearly fees to keep it updated. How about that?

mmm i dont get why TN thinks their update need ana nnulka fee while HEM2 even if its a bigger software can make it without an annual fee!?!?!?

or maybe are just testing customers and maybe next year we can accept annual fee from Hem 2 as well??

spoutnic

05-19-2013, 05:51 PM

I eat back my words. Through searching on tn alternatives, a poker forum user pointed to me the hotkey options in the pokerstar client.

I dont need tn now, only preset bets would be nice, but the table navigation hotkeys was the unavoidable feature.

If you priced your product properly, i would have subscribed without thinking twice. Because i thought twice, i discovered a one shot 2 digit price prog similar to tn, and the hotkeys options included for free in the stars client.

As for your ninja tiling, well, someone else is doing a better job. He has been doing it for years. 10$ more per year for a proven bugfree prog. But i really dont need that function.

In conclusion, you should have had professionnals help you with the release of your tn2. They would have helped you build a marketing plan. 3 digit pricing, 2,5xing from 1st version, was obviously repulsive and conter instant buying price point.

I review my correct pricepoint to 20$/year version without ninja tiling. Paying more than that for preset bets would be ridiculous imho.

I like sticking to whats works, but unless you make a ninja tiling free version at 20$/years, I will have to change my habits.

spoutnic

05-19-2013, 06:03 PM

mmm i dont get why TN thinks their update need ana nnulka fee while HEM2 even if its a bigger software can make it without an annual fee!?!?!?

or maybe are just testing customers and maybe next year we can accept annual fee from Hem 2 as well??

If they do this, the other stats prog wont. Or will be priced intelligently

James666

05-20-2013, 04:38 AM

lifetime use ... bunch of crooks! $$$$
150$ a year for microstakes great job, i really hope it will be a big fail!!!
Luckily there are allready other tools that have all the TN functions for free!!

X3FF

05-20-2013, 04:40 AM

I am shocked. If this is your last word to that I will quit after the trial, there are alternative programme for free. Not so comfortable, but the old autohotkey things seems to work.

By the way, you have so many bugs in that I am just use TN1.

TriplexXx

05-20-2013, 05:52 AM

From 60$ Lifetime to 150$ per years is unacceptable :mad::mad:
And stopping support for TN1 that quickly also :mad::mad:

So lets give Stars Hotkey a chance, cause this is for free ...

SiankO

05-20-2013, 10:30 PM

The price gap is just too big to be justified.

HossendeHaai

05-21-2013, 06:12 AM

Tnx for the reply. Seems fair enough. Can you confirm that the TN1 activation server will be up a reasonable time after august 15 though? That's left unanswered.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^

sideshow

05-21-2013, 06:45 AM

Hi,

The activation server will still be up but we won't be providing updates after that date.

Thanks

jimster

05-22-2013, 07:25 AM

So I bought TableNinja FT which you shoved out of the window with the argument that FullTilt is no more the same. That was your first crooked move!
Now we finally get a working tool for FullTilt again, now we TN FT customers have to pay $150 to get it for a year? Are you serious?

Getting 5 month for free as a TableNinja Customer is a generous offer, but, as a TN FT customer and a TN customer with the declined support for TN1, the ended support for TN FT, I feel bend over the desk, robbed and fucked over royally.