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View Full Version : Stats = Range Or Stats = Frequency of action ?



GR8Grinder
02-03-2013, 06:25 PM
[ After running a filtered report through hm1 on him, and imputting his SB PFR cards into flopzilla, i noticed to my amazement that his pre-flop raising cards from SB, amount to a range of 73%,
yet on my hud it says his SB PFR is 54% ]


** Just as an aside to this,

I am still puzzled though, as I have always thought, an indeed seen in many vids including Hem vids, that you use these hud stats to determine villain's most likely ranges.

Of course I realise, this is a guide and villain is going to be balancing with hands outside the top percentage of hands suggested by the hud stats, but even so, with analysis showing a +20-30% difference of hands, how are you meant to make sense of that ?

i.e, Hud/SB VPIP = 54%,

Reports/Holecards SB VPIP = 87%

As I've said, I realise stats are a guide, and that the percentage is of frequency of actions, but what is the use in inputting percentages into the likes of Pokerstove and then returning results that aren't in fact representative of hands ( ranges ) that a player is in fact playing ?:confused:

Patvs
02-03-2013, 09:34 PM
There is no correlation between the ranges in PokerStove/Flopzilla and.... the HUD stats in HoldemManager.

All stats, only show the percentage a player will make a certain action... when he has the opportunity to make this action.

HM2 does have VPIP RANGE, and PFR RANGE stats.
This is a screenshot of my ultra-tight full ring stats:

100441

VPIP 11% - PFR 7%
VPIP range is between 14.1 - 20.7%
PFR range is between 11.2 - 16%

As you can see although I only PFR 7% (!) of hands, my range is between 11.2% and 16%.
Where players often think of ranges when it comes to 3bet and 4bet ranges (these stats actually exist in HM1), it's actually uncommon to convert a VPIP (or a PFR) into a range.

The big difference between PFR and PFR range, occurs when for example in 6max or full ring a very tight player still 'steals' with a very wide (and very polarized) range in late position.

GR8Grinder
02-04-2013, 05:52 AM
"There is no correlation between the ranges in PokerStove/Flopzilla and.... the HUD stats in HoldemManager. "

"it's actually uncommon to convert a VPIP (or a PFR) into a range. "


But that is exactly my point.

Brent Clearman in all of his Hem vids for 1 & 2. and in hundreds of vids and articles from training sites and blogs etc, do precisely this = convert vpip and pfr to visual ranges via pokerstove and flopzilla, or am I living on a different planet!

netsrak
02-04-2013, 07:42 AM
I'll forward it to Brent :)

GR8Grinder
02-04-2013, 10:58 AM
Okay Thanks,

Be very interested in the reply:confused:

B-Money
02-04-2013, 01:34 PM
Gr8Grinder,

I think you have me confused with another video producer? I don't believe I've ever thrown a % into flopzilla or pokerstove to visually see a range in a video. I never do it when I play and I highly doubt I would go off the cuff and talk about something I don't know much about in a video.

Patvs above explained things better than I could've for the question you are asking.

In a SB cash game, my SB steal % is super high. I play tons of hands from the SB (More than "optimal), but my results are above average for SB play. I know I've talked about that a few times in videos when I'm talking about playing by position and looking at stats by position.

I personally never use the Range stats because it's information overload for me. I use 8 stats when I play and a few in the popups for specific steal situations, other than that, I'm not a stat nut. Thinking back, I might have thrown a VPIP or a PFR stat into something like pokerstove, but that was just to demonstrate the possible range of hands for a player. Something super basic. "Hey, this guy plays 8% of his hands, see how tight he is VS someone who plays 40% of their hands?" That's probably the extent of pokerstove type things I've done in a video. I definitely haven't done it to break a regulars game down.

My golden rule for profitable play. "Avoid the regulars and play the worst of the worst players and poker is not so hard." Back when I grinded .25/.50 6-MAX, TableScanner was my best friend for profitable play.

GL,
-Brent

GR8Grinder
02-04-2013, 03:39 PM
Hi Brent,

Thank you for taking the time to reply, I really appreciate you doing so.


"Brent Clearman in all of his Hem vids for 1 & 2. and in hundreds of vids and articles from training sites and blogs etc, do precisely this = convert vpip and pfr to visual ranges via pokerstove and flopzilla, or am I living on a different planet!"

I apologise, you haven't in fact used pokerstove/flopzilla in you're vids for range analysis,,, But,

In Stats 101 from 15:40 onwards, you used the hem hand range tool to show vpip and pfr and 3bet ranges for 2 or 3 players,

and you say 100541

" this is going to show you how to put players on ranges of hands"

and

" if you use pokerstove, by all means use that as well"

Now as I have already said, I know Villain isn't just going to be playing exactly so & so % of hands as shown by his hud, but again, I'm sure I cant be the only person that uses stats in this way for an approx range finder, in fact I know I'm not as I have many, many vids by coaches from training sites that do exactly that.

This is how we have been taught to use these stats!


And all I am saying is, if as me, and I'm certain there are, many players using vpip and pfr etc in this way as taught and shown again and again in vids and on websites, we are all using them In contradiction to how they should be used.

Contrary to how many players I know personally put stock in vpip and pfr stats, and how they can be used to assess a players range, is completely wrong, and vpip and pfr range stats are really the stats that matter as far as range orientated thinking should go. As mentioned by Patvs above.

This was the first time I had heard of these available stats.

I do have HM2, and think it is the ultimate, but have to keep turning back to HM1 all the time because of the many problems, freezes etc, when I use it:( and only really use it to upload hands to the cloud from HM1 !


Anyway,
Thank you very much indeed once again for taking the time to reply.

All the very best:)

B-Money
02-04-2013, 04:40 PM
I reviewed the video in question. The concept I was getting across is using the hand range tool so people can understand what stats mean. As you know, just because someone is PFR'ing 20% of the time, the range that pokerStove spits out isn't their exact range, it's a ball park range of hands.

An example of this is I way overplay A suited hands PF. If we use the hand range tools and match them up against my PFR %, some of those A suited hands will be missing, but I indeed play them all more than I should.

Finding exact hand ranges can be tricky, but the video above does highlight the basics. Lets say you're facing a PFR from someone and you decide to 3bet. They call or raise your 3-bet. Now it's time to move past PFR stats and check out their range for calling the 3bet or raising. Unless they are a super fish, now their range has tightened up significantly on most occasions.

Hope this helps. Let me know if you have any more questions.

-Brent

GR8Grinder
02-04-2013, 04:52 PM
Thanks Brent,

And where can I find the Vpip & Pfr Range stats in HM2, because I have looked, but cant see them.

Thanks again for the replies.

B-Money
02-04-2013, 05:46 PM
100551

GR8Grinder
02-04-2013, 06:13 PM
Thanks.