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DonPablo
12-28-2012, 04:42 AM
Very interesting question regarding the HUD values !

Let's give an hypothetical situation 1:
VPIP: 11.01%
http://i48.tinypic.com/2eyj7dw.png

PFR: 6.49%
http://i47.tinypic.com/2hdmwy0.png

3Bet: 1.66%
http://i45.tinypic.com/2rfeir5.png

Now, let's imagine another guy who's VPIP is higher, he is using LAG style of play:
VPIP:45.40%
http://i48.tinypic.com/35be2ci.png
BUT his PFR range still the same as above and his 3Bet range still the same as above.

How all of these will appear in the HUD ???
For the first situation it would be:
VPIP: 11.01/ PFR: 6.49%/3Bet:1.66% ??? <<=== Am I right ???

But how it would be for the second one:
VPIP: 45.40%/PFR: ??? /3Bet: ???
The values would be the same as above or they would be lower because his VPIP is higher and QQ+,AKs represent a lower part of his huge range ? Or no mater the range ? How it is ?

Thank you !

Patvs
12-28-2012, 07:00 PM
Player 1: VPIP: 11.01%/ PFR: ?%/3Bet:?%
Player 2: VPIP: 45.40%/ PFR: ?% /3Bet:?%


There is a difference between 3bet and 3bet range. (similarly 4bet vs 4bet range)
The 1.66% you'd like (AA/AKs/KK/QQ) is a range.




Let's take 4bet as an example.

4bet% is how often villain 4bets when facing a 3bet
4bet range is total pfr divided by 4bet%.

Generally, when you 4bet somebody, you have previously "Raise 1st" ("2bet") and have been Reraised ("3bet").

Thus, when you raise the first time, your "Raise 1st" % equals the % of hand you raise among all the hands you are dealt.
Example: If you "Raise 1st" UTG in 6max games 10% of the time, that means you are raising 10% of 100% of the hands your are dealt.

Now, when you face a 3bet and decide to 4bet, the "4bet" % is the % you raise this 3bet from your "Raise 1st" range (10%).



Example 2: Same "Raise 1st" as before, you are 3betted. But you will 4bet, say 30% of your "Raise 1st" range.
Here your 4bet% is 30% of your "Raise 1st" range
But what percentage those 30% represent among all the hands you are dealt:
Only 30% of 10%, which is 3%, and this is what "4bet range" calculates.
It's much more easy to associate a hand range to that 3%.... than 30% of 10%.

Patvs
12-28-2012, 07:13 PM
So PFR is 6.49% in your example?
Not necessarily.

In the past both VPIP and PFR were both based on the total number of hands.
You are dealt 100 hands.
You 'play' 20 hands--> VPIP = 20% (20 out of 100 hands)
You 'raise' 10 hands--> PFR = 10%. (10 out of 100 hands)

But this is no longer true. Both HoldemManager and PokerTracker don't look at the total number of hands, but at the number of opportunites.

When it's folded to you in the big blind (you get a walk), this is counted as a hand played (so it counts towards your 'number of hands').. but it doesn't count towards your VPIP.
When a player goes allin (his stack is bigger than yours) and you call, this hand isn't used for your PFR because you didn't have the opportunity to raise.


Therefore VPIP, PFR, 3bet and 4bet, are no longer based on the same number of hands. And even if players pfr/3bet/4bet the same 'range' of hands, their stats may not be the same, when one player does get the opportunity to pfr/3bet/4bet... and the other doesn't.

Not Excessive
12-28-2012, 08:32 PM
... But this is no longer true. Both HoldemManager and PokerTracker don't look at the total number of hands, but at the number of opportunites ...

Does this would mean that all the 'recommended stats' as to what is good/bad/tight/loose play quoted in the various poker forums will need to be reworked?

Patvs
12-29-2012, 12:40 PM
No, all the recommended ideal stat ranges are still valid.
But the calculation to get to such a 'recommended number' in your HUD is now different.

The biggest debate is..... in the 'old system' (where VPIP and PFR and both based on the same number of hands: the total number of hands) VPIP would always either match or be higher than PFR.

In the new system -under rare circumstances- PFR can be higher than VPIP!
The new system is explained here: http://hm2faq.holdemmanager.com/questions/2052/DatabaseUpdateUtility (read the last 'stat changes' part)



Q: Why is this good?

A: The new % is the more accurate representation of player's range in games with a lot of all-ins. Think of it this way: are you more likely to raise all-in, or call an all-in? For a lot of players, it holds true that they raise a much bigger % of their hands than what they call with and that's why you will see their PFR being higher than VPIP.

DonPablo
12-29-2012, 01:47 PM
In the new system -under rare circumstances- PFR can be higher than VPIP!
The new system is explained here: http://hm2faq.holdemmanager.com/questions/2052/DatabaseUpdateUtility (read the last 'stat changes' part)


Situation2:

You play 10 hands, call once, raise 2 times (same as before), but you also face 4 all-ins)


Previously:

VPIP 30 (3 out of 10 times),

PFR 20 (2 out of 10 times)


Now:

VPIP 30 (3 out of 10 timeS)

PFR 33 (2 out of 6 times, you couldnt raise when facing 4 all-ins)
http://hm2faq.holdemmanager.com/questions/2052/Database+Update+Utility

I think this is wrong. Once you put money on the pot, no matter if raise or limp it should be count as VPIP. Right ? So why VPIP remain lower than PFR since you put money on the pot even the player is allin or not and even you can or cannot raise/re-raise him ?

Patvs
12-29-2012, 02:10 PM
Once you put money on the pot, no matter if raise or limp it should be count as VPIP. Right ?

That's correct. That's why VPIP is the same (30% in both the old and new system)
The difference is in the PFR stat. Which is no longer also based on 10 hands, but now on only 6 hands.
So the VPIP isn't lower. It's PFR that is higher for being based on less hands.

You should look at PFR (and 3bet/4bet, etc.) in the same way you look at the RFI (raise first in) stat.
You always have the opportunity to VPIP (except when you get a walk), but you don't always have the opportunity to RFI.
So with RFI it always was accepted it was based on a different sample size. And now PFR (and all other stats) use the same method.

For example:
Call Continuation Bet + Raise Continuation Bet + Fold to Continuation Bet used to be 100%. (they would be based on the same sample size) But now when a player is already all in, you cannot raise and only call or fold and the opportunities will be adjusted.