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Timoney79
10-27-2008, 06:49 AM
Hi,

i just played my first 50k Hands with HEM at Doyles Room and at the moment i try to analyse my game.
I started there with NL10 with 10BB/100. After beating NL20 with about 7BB/100 i tried my first steps on NL50 last week.
I realised that my Non-Showdown Winnings look horrible. Is it normal that I onīt make profit here and which stats in BB/100 are here ok?
I hope you understand what i mean. My English isnīt perfect.

morny
10-27-2008, 01:01 PM
Yeah from my experience peoples non showdown winnings tend to go in the opposite direction to their showdown winnings usually at a 45 degree angle even when there beating the level, as they become more aggressive raising and betting more the line gradually increases close to the breakeven mark the more laggier you get. Super TAG/Lags like the players coaching on cardrunners/dueces etc seem to have a reasonably to very positive return for non showdown winnings because there so aggressive but obviously their w$sd will be lower than the standard TAB, in short i think its probably fine if your winning and natural evolution to a more aggressive game will result in your w$sd decreasing slighlty and your non showdown wiinnings increasing. You really need to look at your game as a whole though to make a proper decision on whether your doing good or bad

guin36
01-05-2009, 03:26 AM
Is it possible to show the non showdown winnings as bb / 100 on the HUD? I would think it helps to notice the few players that are really crushing the game vs. those who are set mining.

Also what report can I run to see non showdown $ winnings as a stat?

Al1
01-05-2009, 10:13 AM
Is it possible to show the non showdown winnings as bb / 100 on the HUD? I would think it helps to notice the few players that are really crushing the game vs. those who are set mining.

You can't, but you can suggest it here: http://holdemmanager.uservoice.com/


Also what report can I run to see non showdown $ winnings as a stat?

You can add SD/NSD winnings if you click the "+" in the Report tab.

guin36
01-06-2009, 02:55 AM
The addition to the report is great to see.... so far I think that the difference in winning based on showdown vs non showdown is how well people value bet the river. I am winning about 50% of my hands without showdown so maybe I have to bet a little less to induce some bluffs and increase winrate.

Al1
01-06-2009, 11:33 AM
The addition to the report is great to see.... so far I think that the difference in winning based on showdown vs non showdown is how well people value bet the river. I am winning about 50% of my hands without showdown so maybe I have to bet a little less to induce some bluffs and increase winrate.

This is just a personnal advice. Don't try to play for a number. Furthermore, SDW/NSDW are very player dependant.

AKNL
03-25-2009, 06:26 PM
This nsdw line is totally and utterly freakin me out.

How can people have and positive sdw AND nsdw ??????
Its like...every hand they play they make monies?????

Im working really hard to get my nsdw line as close to zero as i can...and this is already almost too much to handle...and sooner or later it will drop...and drop...and drop.


Are these graphs of other players played with absolute morons on hu-tables or what?
Do they just triple barrel every fck hand ?

I really cant see how they do it!
If i watch the pro-videos...they dont triple barrel too much...and they also dont bluff too much.

How the fck do i need to look at these graphs???


Please help me guys !!!!


tx

drdoctor
04-08-2009, 10:02 AM
Ive been feeling like ive run into a lot of coolers, and I feel like my value bet rivers arent getting called that often. but maybe im bluffing the river too much? I dont feel like I am. Maybe Im calling river bets too light, or getting it all in early with marginal hands.

I am very aggressive, but I dont 3 barrell often. In fact, I cbet less often than the average. hmm. I'll figure it out.

Also, this shows that you can make a profit with NSDW. I started off running cold this year, but steadily have been coming back.

heh
04-08-2009, 08:14 PM
If you are playing tight preflop then you are going to have a lot of blinds weighing your NSDW down. Playing aggressive poker postflop will obviously pull the other direction.

I am, myself, in the middle of trying to up my NSDW by playing somewhat more aggressively postflop.

gsus
12-04-2009, 10:16 AM
Is there some way to see non-showdown winnings in tournament chips?

I'm playing mainly HU sit n gos and this would be really usefull information for adjusting aggression etc.

Patvs
12-06-2009, 06:44 PM
No, not possible for SNG/MTT

harlequin99
12-12-2009, 02:07 PM
The three most common reasons for a negative red line are:

1. Not value betting often enough on the river
2. Playing against calling stations
3. Not stealing often enough e.g. playing suited connectors for showdown value alone

UWjoe
12-14-2009, 05:55 AM
The three most common reasons for a negative red line are:

1. Not value betting often enough on the river
2. Playing against calling stations
3. Not stealing often enough e.g. playing suited connectors for showdown value alone
Ive been trying to understand the significance of this graph, not to hijack but a quick response would be great. i think i might be being bet off equity when im behind and betting others off equity when im ahead? maybe? (i cant understand how the lines all have a very distinct trend in the directions they do)

PS im trying to filter for instances i flatted in a a single raised pot, idk if im doing that right either

EDIT... ^ the PS is definitely not right, and i can understand my filtering error. I still don't understand the graph posted though however and am increasingly curious about it
http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/4786/whatdoesthismean.jpg

harlequin99
12-14-2009, 09:18 AM
Ive been trying to understand the significance of this graph, not to hijack but a quick response would be great. i think i might be being bet off equity when im behind and betting others off equity when im ahead? maybe? (i cant understand how the lines all have a very distinct trend in the directions they do)

PS im trying to filter for instances i flatted in a a single raised pot, idk if im doing that right either



Surely your filter just includes situation were you voluntarily put money in the pot, but only in situations when you could not 3-bet - so that means unraised pots where you limped or open raised. Possibly it also includes situations were you either called an allin or were put all in yourself by an open raise preflop, so could not 3-bet.

I think if that is the case, then the red line is positive as you have initiative in the hand so can force people off their hands by c-betting. Also, you will be open raising more hands in late position so have more steal equity there. The largely negative blue line might suggest you are playing too loosely, so your preflop range does not do well against your opponents at showdown, or you are too willing to put a lot of money in when you are behind e.g. getting it all in on the flop with top pair against a nit.

Edit: Also, you seem to be unlucky in allins juding by the EV.

Edit2:If you want situations were you just flatted, then should "could 3-bet = true" be the correct option along with "did 3-bet=false"?

UWjoe
12-23-2009, 05:01 AM
Edit: Also, you seem to be unlucky in allins juding by the EV.


ya, i just dont believe in the all in ev graph anymore tbh

theumbra
01-09-2010, 11:51 PM
to maintain a positive NSDW graph it is not just enough to blindly increase aggression.

my red line went up steadily after i read and re-read and re-re-read material about the following concepts:

- position !
- pot control
- 5/10 rule
- how to play when weakly / moderately / strongly commited
- floating
- gap concept

if you frequently drop stacks with JJ+ , if you don't feel comfortable with small/medium pairs or suited-connectors then i strongly advise to read about the above basic stuff...

i semi-bluff a ton, almost any hand i'm in, but i do not invest enough to commit easily. big bluffs ? almost never !

and be confident about your game ! this sounds silly probably, but it is very important... i rarely try to get in the way of a confident winner on my table who is probably on a rush while playing his A game.

best book:
harrington on cash games volume one !

GottaFold
05-31-2010, 09:23 PM
This first graph here has some old hands of mine from about 1 or 2 years ago. My non-showdown was really bad. The second one is hands that I played this past week. I struggled with this too, but keep working at it! I was doing well with both styles, but now that I've started making money without showdown my winrate has gone up and I'm making money MUCH more consistenly rather than going though big swings when I'm running bad in bigger showdown pots.

I don't remember what the first graph was, but the second one is all 9max where I was running 16/14/5.

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff17/c_king_12/JuneResults.png
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff17/c_king_12/HEMgraph.png

Great advice by theumbra. The only other things I would add is that I started 3-betting quite a bit more in position and raising turns as semi-bluffs a lot. I find people give you way more credit for a hand if you wait to bluff the turn, rather than the flop.

The only thing I like to do different from what theumbra said is that I definately like to run some big bluffs sometimes. There are a lot of players that make big overbets on rivers, but only do it with nut hands to try and get max value. If you overbet with air against them, they assume you're doing the same thing they do with the nuts and they muck it every time. This is obviously not necessary, but it's something I've been doing lately that's worked VERY well.

KweezyD
07-26-2010, 07:56 PM
OP,
Thanks for the question.


Umbra and GottaFold,
Thanks for the great replies. I find them very helpful. :D