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skipbales
07-18-2010, 05:27 PM
Just as I am typing loose passive in the player notes I add the aggressive stat and find it is anywhere from 1.0 to 6.5. I have players with the same exact stats elsewhere yet one is a 1.2 and the other is 5.0 for aggression.

There are so many kinds of aggression. Pre-flop aggression, three betting, and the aggression you see when it gets short handed or when the player gets a big chip lead.

I would love to know who changes gears and gets aggressive at the end but don't really understand what the "aggressive" stat is telling me.

What is it based on?:cool:

_Loki_
07-18-2010, 07:08 PM
Hi Skipbales

Are you asking about defining the terms ?
>>> FAQ - Hold'em Manager Poker Tracking Software :: Stats Definition for Report TAB (http://faq.holdemmanager.com/questions/388/Stats+Definition+for+Report+TAB)
>>> FAQ - Hold'em Manager Poker Tracking Software :: Stat Definitions (http://faq.holdemmanager.com/questions/95/Stat+Definitions)

Or something deeper relating to analysis ?

skipbales
07-19-2010, 02:08 PM
As always you more then help, you also stretch me.

Initially I was referring to the default "AGG factor" stat. It doesn't say pre flop, etc., just AGG Factor. I noticed it did not track with the other information, mostly pre-flop such as vpip, raise 3 bet and blind steal. So, I was asking what components went into the calculation of this particular "Aggression" stat, not even knowing there were so many others to pick from. I would still like to know about this particular Aggression value. Is it an average, or is it post flop or what?

I followed your links and read each one. I understand them all but none of them is identified as the one used as the default starting one. Each has a definition which explains it such as preflo Aggression. The default one is simply labeled AGG Factor. Aff Factor is not listed as a stat itself that I could see.


What mixture of things go into this "default" Aggression stat which comes with the default, simple HUD? It must not be pre-flop so what actually is this one?

Although now, I will probably change my HUD to contain more than one single Aggression stat since you have enlightened me to the possibilities.

Thanks,:confused:

_Loki_
07-19-2010, 07:07 PM
###
HM menu bar > Help > Articles (8) > Article 6 ~ October 28th 2008
I think Roy wrote this at a guess
###

How to get the best from Holdem Manager

In this guide i will try and describe how we can get the best out of Holdem Manager by fully understanding how we can use the stats to exploit players weaknesses and to help use the stats and define ranges more accurately. With the emergence of software as powerful as Holdem Manager you would think that peoples edges are becoming bigger and bigger but theres so many people that dont understand the stats themselves and what they mean and the fact that most stats must be used in conjunction with other stats to get a proper understanding of what they really mean.
I'll start of with an example on post flop aggression to give you an idea of the things we will covering on this website, most people agree someone with an aggression factor of less than 1.5 is passive, 1.5-2 is border line between slightly passive and slightly aggressive and 2-3.5 would be your average aggressive Tag player and anything above that would be very aggressive. This is where we will go the extra step because that is a very general assessment of a player and putting all players into this bracket is a mistake. Aggression is calculated like this:
Aggression Factor
No of times he Bet + No of times he Raises / No of times he Calls = Aggression Factor, so if a villain's aggression is 3 this means he bets or raises 3 times more often than he calls.

NB: This shouldnt be confused with Aggression % which is the % of time he bets/raises compared with the total oppurtunities he has to bet or raise.

So lets take a regular TAG playing 20 $V$PIP with an aggression of 2.5 and compare him to a donk playing 50 V$pip.

Well give them an average range as different players will have different styles.

TAG's range will be 22+, AT+, A9s-A7s, KJ+, KTs, QJ, QTs, JT, J9s, T9, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s which is approx 20% of hands.
Donks range will be 22+, A2+, K9+, K8s-K2s, Q9+, Q8s, Q7, Q6s, Q5o, Q3o, J9+, J8s, J6o, T9, T8s, T7s, T4s, T2o, 98s, 97, 96s, 94o, 87s, 86s, 85, 82s, 76s-74s, 72o, 65s-62s, 54s, 53s, 43s which is approx 50% and includes lots of random junk.

We will take the turn as an example because TAGs will cbet/raise the flop alot with a huge range and generally have a high aggression factor on the flop. Its fine to cbet the flop with a wide range but the turn is a pivitol point in the hand where we should decide whether our hand is strong enough to bet/check/raise or fold. Now we have to consider 2 more stats before we can properly assess both of the villains in this scenario.

Went to Showdown & Won at Showdown
Now before we can go any further we need to look at 2 more stats and how they are generally used. The 2 stats are Went to Showdown which will be referred to WentSD for the rest of this example and Won $ At Showdown which will be referred to as W$SD. I wont go madly into detail on these because i will be discussing them at detail in the future. Bare in mind that this stat is only calculated when someone sees a flop, if a 20 v$pip has 1000 hands then this sample will only be over approx 200 hands because he only seen 200 flops out of them 1000 hands but for a 50 V$pip player he would have seen 500 in the same 1000 hands. I generally dont give this too much credibility unless i have a min of 1k hands, the more hands i have the more credibility i assign.

Went to Showdown: This is the % of time that the villain sees a showdown when he sees a flop. Ill give another example of how we can interpret the stats but again bare in mind stats must be used in conjunction to get a better interpretation.
<22%
Usually someone with less than 22% is only getting to showdown with a strong hand and theyre probably weak tight and can be pushed off weak TP hands and worse pretty easy on the flop but if they make it this far theyre probably not worth double barrelling too often unless there fold to turn bet % is high.
22%-29%
22%-29% fits most TAGs ranges with the high end more likely to value bet thinner and double barrell more and the lower end will generally just be tighter unimaginative TAGs or Nits but like everything this has to be taking in context.
29%+
Anything over 29% i would consider loose and that they overvalue hands so well have to call these down lighter but also value bet them more often too.

Won $ at Showdown
This is based on the % of time he wins money when he gets to showdown. Again like WentSD this stat is only based on the amount of times he sees a showdown, with loose player with a high WentSD we will be able to get more information quicker because they will be seeing more showdowns than your average player, again i would need 1k+ hands from a loose player or 2k hands from an average player before i give this credibility. For example a 20 V$pip player will see 400 flops in 2k hands and will get to showdown 27% of the time so if a player has 2k hands then hes likely only seen just over 100 showdowns. A player with a V$pip of 50% and WentSD of 30% would have seen 150 showdowns over 1k hands.

<40%
This type of player massively overvalues hes hand, likely bluffs alot, is a caling station and should be value bet to death and called down very light if he has maniac stats. TP against this type of player is gold but be prepared for high variance.

40%-48%
The lower end are usually similar to the type above but just not as gung ho, the higher end of this spectrum tend to call too much, overvalue hand like TP on flush/straight boards or overcards and can be value bet lighter than normal.

48%-54%
Most TAG's and good players fall into this category, they generally get to showdown with a decent hand and usually have good equity if they make it this far.

54%+
Nits and weak tight players generally fall into this category because theyre hands are so strong when they come into a pot that they generally have the a strong hand alot. Most people that fit in this range will have a low WentSD% aswell.

Putting In all Together


So we understand about what aggression factor means, what Went to Showdown means and what Won $ at Showdown means. Now lets put it all together to explain why aggression factor needs to be used in conjunction with the other stats to interpret them properly and why understanding stats properly is essential to making better EV decisions.

So if we get back to our example with the 50 v$pip player. Hes aggression is the same as the 20 V$pip TAG so whats the difference. Well for one the 50 v$pip is still betting/raising 2.5 times more often than hes calling even though hes seeing 2.5 times more flops than the TAG with a range of hands that have terrible equity yet hes still seeing approx 29-35% of showdowns with these weak hands while betting and raising 2.5 times more often than he just calls which means hes seeing a big amount of showdowns with hands with poor equity in raised pots.
So if this donk is betting and raising so many hands with poor equity then we can call them down alot lighter with MP and better and sometimes even A high because the law of averages means theyre bluffing and betting weak hands a high % of the time. Some donks like this can be passive on the flop and turn but have a big river aggression factor, again when they bet the river we can call lighter profitably against these type.

If a TAG like we described has a 2.5 aggression factor we can assume hes reasonably aggressive, taking down pots with aggression when weakness is shown, betting and raising with draws and semi bluffing in spots would be common from a typical TAG with a 2.5 aggression factor but that is very general as different TAGs play differently post flop.
However if the TAG has a WentSD of 22% and W$SD 58% then we can assume hes weak tight because hes only seing 22% of showdowns and winning 58% of showdowns and so when he does get to showdown he generally has a very strong hand but hes not getting to showdown very often with worse hands and probably folding too easy or being bluffed off hands too easily.
Giving hes style though hes less likely to be semi bluffing and raising draws less often but because hes either betting or folding alot because hes weak tight hes aggression stays high because hes not calling too often.
In comparisson another TAG has a WentSD of 27% and W$SD of 49%, hes getting to showdown more often but not winning as often as the other TAG because hes double barrelling and semi bluffing and raising draws more than the other TAG, because hes been very aggressive hes aggression factor also stays high too.

So you can see that you cant just look at a player and say hes aggression is 2.5 so hes raising draws and making bluffs alot, as weve seen we have a maniacal 50 v$pip player, and two 20 v$pip players that all have the same aggression factor and if we were to make a decision solely on their aggression factor we would be playing very poorly but when we look at their aggression in conjunction with their V$pip, Went To Showdown and Won $ At Showdown stats we begin to see how we can use the combined info to get an accurate assesment of what type of range the player is betting/raising and calling with.





Holdem Manager Poker Stats Profiling 2008. All Rights Reserved

_Loki_
07-19-2010, 07:39 PM
###
Interpreting aggression stats is not straightforward - they only make sense in relation to other stats...

As an example take the normal pre-flop Agg factor & compare it with a players VPIP for players Al, Bert & Charlie
vpip/af: A = 12/3; B = 18/3; C = 35/3;
Although in those 3 cases AF = 3 the implications on the table are completely different. Which of those three players AF would you respect the most ?

###
I found these useful:
http://forums.holdemmanager.com/hud-general/22846-aggression-factor.html
http://forums.holdemmanager.com/leak-buster/22635-agg-vs-agg.html

###
My game is 6max cash & so post-flop (when there is a post-flop that is) is usually HU or 3-way
I just use AF in the HUD & the fancy stats I've put in the pop-up
IMO Stealing (as much as possible) & not being stolen from (very much) is the bread & butter & that's where my analysis energies are in play

###

skipbales
07-19-2010, 08:15 PM
Again I am in your debt. You show me reprints I should be able to find. I maintain my own website and have the same problem. People ask me for things easily found on the website. In defense, I know every word on my site as you seem to here.

There is SO much information here it is hard for me to find the small pieces I am looking for. Be patient and I will grow into the site.

I will never analyze a fraction of the possible choices. My head would explode. Luckily it isn't necessary for me to be a winning player. I am more than pleased with what I do use.

;)

_Loki_
07-19-2010, 09:41 PM
Hi Skipbales - PM your website link if you don't mind

skipbales
07-21-2010, 02:46 AM
I have a few. Tavernpokerleague.com DASHaHOUND.COM Globebusinessconsulting.com

Did I mention I am retired. For me that is when I am down to only 2-3 ventures at a time. lol

I run a small poker league in taverns, raise miniature Dachshunds and considered doing a little consulting here locally but scrapped that idea, too much like work. I built the website and never used it.

:)

_Loki_
07-21-2010, 03:01 AM
I'm having difficulty with the miniature Dachshunds concept. Can they walk under closed doors or something ? :)

Regarding pub ('taverns' - ha !) poker - maybe not a bad idea considering some of the shenanigans in the virtual game:
Bot Ring Discovered at PokerStars (http://www.pokernewsdaily.com/bot-ring-discovered-at-pokerstars-13513/)

At least in the pub I can suss out collusion/cheating pretty quickly
(& the shuffling is usually rubbish which is very useful if you have a memory for cards)

Thanks for those links I'll check 'em out later today

skipbales
07-21-2010, 03:28 AM
Miniature as in under 11 pounds compared to as much as 60 for a standard. Really cute little guys.

The pub poker is fun although quite different. Player dealt cards a million mistakes a night, "who's it up to", "how much can I bet" and so forth.

The Tavern pays the league a fee to provide the structure and prizes. The players play for free as a form of entertainment. It really helps the Tavern turn a dead night into a big draw.

_Loki_
07-21-2010, 04:16 AM
"The players play for free as a form of entertainment..." :confused::confused::confused:
This is something to do with not being licensed for 'gambling' hence the 'gifts' ? Do you charge an entry fee to play cards so as to recover what you pay the league ?

skipbales
07-22-2010, 04:22 PM
We ARE the league. I started it and I own it. I started it as a business to help my step son and he is in it with me.

The taverns pay us to be in the league. The cost is quite low, $20 per tournament. They can then advertise "free Texas Hold'em Tournaments" and offer small nightly prizes, regional and statewide tournaments and a final all league tournament with $2,000 and $10,000 WSOP prizes.

What the taverns get is a booming Monday (or whatever) night which would otherwise be dead.

There is no cost whatsoever to the players. They don't even have to buy a soda. We ask them not to be cheapskates and most order appetizers or sodas or drinks but some don't. Enough do to make it profitable for the taverns and simply having cars in the parking lot attracts others who would otherwise not come in.

It is win win and fun for all. IT IS NOT SERIOUS POKER, IT IS FUN AND PLAYED FOR FUN, even though there are some big prizes at the end. :)