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View Full Version : how does hem calculate the cEV for tourney hands?



emnini
05-11-2010, 04:13 PM
it seems to me that the cEV HEM display in the report section for tourney hands is pretty strange; here is a sample hand:

No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 600/1200 Blinds (9 handed) - Hold'em Manager (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com)

saw flop

MP1 (t19410)
Hero (MP2) (t32542)
MP3 (t67493)
CO (t30007)
Button (t8156)
SB (t9885)
BB (t22550)
UTG (t40646)
UTG+1 (t25488)

Hero's M: 18.08

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerforum/images/smilies/spade.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerforum/images/smilies/diamond.gif
2 folds, MP1 bets t19285, Hero raises t32417, 5 folds

Flop: (t40370) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerforum/images/smilies/heart.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerforum/images/smilies/spade.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerforum/images/smilies/diamond.gif (2 players)

Turn: (t40370) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerforum/images/smilies/spade.gif (2 players)

River: (t40370) 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerforum/images/smilies/spade.gif (2 players)

Total pot: t40370

HEM tells me that my cEV here is -17875; how's that?

morny
05-11-2010, 07:47 PM
Hi,

This is a very popular question so we made an extensive video at this FAQ that explains all the EV scenarios and common questions and how they are calculated. Feel free to check it out FAQ - Hold'em Manager Poker Tracking Software :: EV Explained (http://faq.holdemmanager.com/questions/120/EV+Explained)

Patvs
05-11-2010, 09:31 PM
HEM tells me that my cEV here is -17875; how's that?

JJ vs AQo?
Blinds at 300/600 with a 75 ante
(I'm just guessing)

Your equity is (0.56 * 40370) = 22607
You WON the hand. So the EV Diff is 22607 - 40370 = -17763.

emnini
05-12-2010, 05:36 AM
sry, but that's not at all my understanding of cEV. for the hand I posted, I'd calculate EV as follows:

I win the pot 56% of the time, so 0.56*40370=22607.2
I loose my bet 44% of the time, so 0.44*19285=8485.4
Since folding equity is no consideration here, the total cEV is thus 22607.2-8485.4=14121.8. +14121.8.

maybe I'm missing some advanced mathematical concepts here (and I'd be happy if you could enlighten me in that case), but knowing the exact hand, I'm pretty sure it's a +cEV play. why I should substract the pot won from my win EV as suggested by patvs remains very unclear to me, as does the idea that WON hands mean negative EV.

also in your video (thanks for the link), the hand you discuss for tourney EV is pretty strange; its A9 vs AJ (27:73); again, for me, cEV would be 0.23*545-0.73*235=-46.2. And indeed, knowing that your opp holds a dominating ace, you'd probably not call (you might of course doing this with given stacks in a real tourney situation where you only guess a range, against which you're probably +cEV). similar for $eV: you'd have to compare the $0.66 with your $EV from folding - which is sure higher. Oh, and talking about ICM: Strangely, it does work for some tourneys where I made the money, but by far not for all (although I alwys import results); why's that?

Patvs
05-12-2010, 05:52 AM
Of course your JJ vs AQo has a positive EV.
But HM shows the cEV Diff (and EV Diff for cash games)

The (c)EV DIFFERENCE = OUTCOME (win/loss) -EV

As an example take AA vs KK. 80% vs 20%.
$50 stacks. Both players go allin. You have AA.
Your EV is (0.8 * 100) - (0.2 * 0) = +$80
Your EV Diff is:
if you LOOSE the hand it's +80 (you win 0$, but your EV was +$80)
if you WIN the hand it's -$20 (You win $100, but you EV was ONLY +$80)



$EV WON in the TOUNEY--> Results--> Dataview--> should only work for single table tournaments.

The Minder
05-12-2010, 08:24 PM
...No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 600/1200 Blinds (9 handed)

At this blind level, this is an MTT not an STT


..... $EV WON in the TOUNEY--> Results--> Dataview--> should only work for single table tournaments.

moot.