Why this is not considered a 4bet by HEM?

[Ollives]

Hello everybody,

I recently played the following hand and I dont understand why the BB all-in raise is not considered a 4 bet by HEM ?
I recorded 115 hands on the BB during the tourney and was trying to look at his stats.
The only way I could filter this hand were AllinPreflop=True and InBBandStealReraise=True. .Filterring with RaisedPrflop3bet=True is not working while I can get the hand for the SB filtering with 3bet...
In the Tourney>PreflopCards tab I have nothing for 4 bet for the BB..but I have 3bet for the SB...
Is there something I misunderstand or a small something wrong with HEM and 4bet???
Thanks for your help!

Edit: I have the hand for SB with Call 4bet...so whats wrong with the BB...???

No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 40/80 Blinds (7 handed) - <a href="http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php">Hold'em Manager</a> Converter Tool from <a href="http://www.flopturnriver.com">FlopTurnRiver.com</a><br>
<br>
MP2 (t1890)<br>
CO (t3841)<br>
Button (t1270)<br>
SB (t3442)<br>
BB (t4032)<br>
UTG (t1415)<br>
MP1 (t3122)<br>

<b>Preflop</b>:<br>
<font color=#666666><i>4 folds</i></font>, <font color=#CC3333>Button bets t240</font>, <font color=#CC3333>SB raises t760</font>, <font color=#CC3333>BB raises t3952 (All-In)</font>, <font color=#666666><i>1 fold</i></font>, SB calls t2642 (All-In)<br>
<br>
<b>Flop</b>: (t7124)&nbsp;K&hearts;,&nbsp;J&spades;,&nbsp;K&diams; <font color=#009B00>(2 players, 2 all-in)</font><br>
<b>Turn</b>: (t7124)&nbsp;J&diams; <font color=#009B00>(2 players, 2 all-in)</font><br>
<b>River</b>: (t7124)&nbsp;2&diams; <font color=#009B00>(2 players, 2 all-in)</font><br>
<b>Total pot:</b> t7124<br>

[Ollives]

I found that in the FAQ:

Four Bet: Player must open the betting action then be the one to 4-bet.

What is the rationale for that???

[jenkulle]

I think there is a COLD 4bet stat ... might be different because it needs to be cold, should be included in the 4bet total tho...

[morny]

Because raising to people when there was a raise and a 3bet is a different scenario to 4betting between just 2 people just like squeezing is different to 3betting

[Ollives]

Well...First I would like to say that I am just trying to improve this wonderful tool that HEM is! :D

So...Ok I understand your point but I think this is some kind of personal interpretation...I mean I feel that it is an indisputable fact that raising a 3bet is still a 4bet although I understand it is a different scenario if you have 2 or 3 players involved...

Moreover, according to what you said, I looked at some cash game hands in my database...When I squeeze it is in fact still considered a 3bet!!! Then I have the choice to select 3betting when squeezing or not....

But that's not all...going back to the original hand, according to my database I can filter the SB bet/call using either "did a 3bet" or "called preflop 4bet"...so logically the BB raise has to be a 4bet....no? :confused:

I am not sure this is making a big difference but I now strongly feel that the actual 4bet stat is somewhat wrong and should be modified.

Note: It would be cool to have a new 4bet stats taking into account if there are 2 or more people involved in front (probably the same for the raising 4bet stat). I think you can do it using the main filter tab with some modifications like adding "3 raisers" or "3 raisers or more" or "raiserS + callers"

[jenkulle]

like I said, it sould be a COLD 4 BET, thus an under category in the 4bet subdivision...

I'm with you on that, it's like a squeeze play... it's a 3bet just different but still a 3bet

[Ollives]

Still thinking about it or no way it will be ever changed?
;)

[morny]

Hi,

You can suggest the change here: Suggestions Forums - Holdem Manager Forums (http://forums.holdemmanager.com/suggestions-forums/)

[Ollives]

Well...thanks ok...I will submit something here but...it should not be considered a suggestion but a correction since the stat is wrong....;)

[Ollives]

Actually, I have to say that I am not really happy with the way you manage this problem...I was not used to this from HEM team...:mad:

For example when I say that I can filter the SB call using "called preflop 4bet" and that logically the BB raise has to be a 4bet, it sounds pretty obvious that there is a problem there!!!!

Thus the "You can suggest the change here" answer is really disappointing!!! :eek:

[Self Made]

I agree with the OP here, and had this conversation with support a long time ago when I was similarly confused. They told me "4-bet" doesn't actually measure 4-bets, but instead some subset of 4-bets. I want an actual 4-bet stat, and the current thing can be renamed to something that reflects what it actually is.

[jenkulle]

I agree that suggestion should be for new stuff / ideas...

and I also agree that this is a mistake, thus should be fixed

[morny]

It depends what your interpretation is whether its wrong or not, i would prefer it the way it is as i think 4bet and raise to raisers are quite different situations, regardless this is what the new suggestions forum is for, you have a suggestion/modification, if you post it we will see if there is support for it and then decide if it needs changing. Don't forget there is tons over requests like this and we cant just implement them on the spot and we should also need to give other people an opportunity to vote against it if they like it the way it is

Its not so easy to make a change like this, it requires people to re-import all their hands and when we do this we usually add a whole bunch of stats so its not something we can change just like that even if the stat was completely and totally wrong.

[Ollives]

I am sorry...dont want to be stubborn...but...

-Could you point to a web site or a book where the definition of a 4 bet is the one you (Morny) described ??? I tried and couldnt....!
By essence there should not be different interpretations of a definition!! The point is to have a common definition and here it seems to me that you are trying to defend that the world is flat!

-Even if we stand by your point of view Morny then the SB stats from the original hand are wrong!!! He cant call a 4bet if you consider there is no 4 bet!!! No interpretation here!!!
So we have a flaw in the database...dont you agree with me at least on this point?

I understand that it is a lot of work and we might have to reimport our hands but I prefer that to wrong or inaccurate data!

[jenkulle]

It depends what your interpretation is whether its wrong or not, i would prefer it the way it is as i think 4bet and raise to raisers are quite different situations, regardless this is what the new suggestions forum is for, you have a suggestion/modification, if you post it we will see if there is support for it and then decide if it needs changing. Don't forget there is tons over requests like this and we cant just implement them on the spot and we should also need to give other people an opportunity to vote against it if they like it the way it is

Its not so easy to make a change like this, it requires people to re-import all their hands and when we do this we usually add a whole bunch of stats so its not something we can change just like that even if the stat was completely and totally wrong.


its not because it's not an easy thing to do that your 'interpretation' is right... go ask 2+2 if you feel like it... it IS a 4bet

don't start loosing back people in favor of PT3 for silly things like that... you guys are doing a great job

[Self Made]

Only two yes votes for this so far, one of which was me? Vote (http://forums.holdemmanager.com/stats-suggestions/28352-accurate-4bet-stat.html) people.

[morny]

lol, i was only saying that i would prefer how it is and that a 4bet and raise 2 raisers to be a separate stat, i'm not looking to redefine stats or change the world of poker, this will be a developer decision not mine so if you would like this feel free to vote for it, its just a personal preference and unless you have a huge sample on someone it wont make much difference either way but i do understand what your saying and there seems to be more support for the other way so maybe my opinion is wrong, wouldn't be the first time:D

[Ollives]

Only two yes votes for this so far, one of which was me? Vote (http://forums.holdemmanager.com/stats-suggestions/28352-accurate-4bet-stat.html) people.

I was the other one...anyway I am not optimistic on this...we'll see...

But I am amazed....I looked at a short sample of my database. Over 30582 hands, I have 518hands where I faced 2 raisers+...0 were considered as facing a 3bet although globally on most of them (not all, there are some special case) i was facing a raise and a reraise....thats a lot of hands where 4bet or cold4bet could have been a good stat ..

[Ollives]

Interesting thing to know...
I loaded the original hand in PT3....and the BB raise was considered a 4bet!
So, the two main poker software have different definitions for a preflop-4bet...
Amazing! :D:D:D

[jenkulle]

just a mistake I'm sure they'll fixed it...


hopefully as soon as possible

[Ollives]

I add here interresting posts from the suggestion forum:




What you're suggesting already exists in the program.

First of all the "cold 4bet" you're refering to exists as stat called "open 4bet" in the HUD and the "accurate" 4bet you're mentioning is basically what the "4bet range" stat is all about.

I didnt know about the "open4bet"! Nice one...
I check for the original hand it works.... (ie could filter BB raise using "open4bet")
So from here 2 things:
-It would be really cool to have access to this stat from the main filters in HEM and not only in the HUD....
-It does not change the original problem....ie: if you open4bet it means that you are 4betting so....open4bet is a subdivision of 4bet...actually your post strengthen the idea that the 4bet stat in HEM is inaccurate and usually underestimated!!!

Concerning the "4bet range" stat...I believe it has nothing to do with the original question... Check this for example: http://forums.holdemmanager.com/manager-general/4127-whats-means-between-4bet-4bet-range.html

Any comments?

[Ollives]

Actually, comparing with PT3, I realize that's two different ways to think the database to not say poker...

Looking at a small sample w/ around 4000hands and using the stats "faced preflop 3bet = true"
I return 113hands w/ PT3 but 41 w/ HEM that's a big difference! The reason is that HEM does not take count of situations with a raise followed by a re-raise(the 3 bettor) and another call before the player action...while PT3 does....

So thats real strong different thinking !!!! I guess we'll have to do with it....:(

[Ollives]

Looking back it turns out actually that PT3 4bet stat are lower than HEM 4 bet stat...and this by more or less 2 fold....
I am wondering if in the long run PT3 players are playing differently than HEM player due to different stats...
It sounds to me that PT3 player might have a tighter vision of other players....at least based on 4bet%, dont you think?

[jenkulle]

I dont think that 4bet stat should affect that much your overall game... helps in some closer spots, or helps to figure out about how an opponent is playing, but shouldn't be different enough for major change...

if you're telling me the PFR and agression and such is way off then it could...

but in general you should adjust more to the flow of the game then the stats you see... at least for large # of hands

[Ollives]

in general you should adjust more to the flow of the game then the stats you see...
For sure!!!


...at least for large # of hands
??? I am lost here...u mean the contrary? ie The more hands you play the more you should rely on the stats?


For the 4 stat, I agree with you globally although I feel that 4bet situations are spots where you are playing for more money...so you need precision...

For fun...I check some other stats on a 4000h samples:

pt3 hem

fold to 3bet%
78.45 vs 58.5 (this one is huge!!!)

c/r total %
14.3 vs 11

agg% total
35.3 vs 29.7

cold call...this one funny....if you look at total number of hands you have
57(pt3) 96(hem) big difference because pt3 dont consider situations where you are in the blinds...then looking at percentage you have:
8.24% vs 9.1%

All of this show that you have to know your tracker!!! Although it is very disappointing that the two majors are not able to harmonize the stats they are using...

[benthj]

Because raising to people when there was a raise and a 3bet is a different scenario to 4betting between just 2 people just like squeezing is different to 3betting

I agree with the above definition of yours. Therefore I have wondered quite a bit when I filter and choose "Did 3-bet = True" and "Did squeeze = True". Running these two one at a time, I have noticed that the hands I squeeze with are also included in the hands that I 3-bet.

I assume this is a mistake then, or am I missing something?