Calling All Tournament Regs

[B-Money]

The Official Blog For The Hold'Em Manager Community (http://blogs.holdemmanager.com/)

See the blog post titled Tournament News then come back here for the discussion. Forum software is better suited for the discussion.

Throughout the year I'll be focusing on different areas for future Holdem Manager Development. First up is Tournament Players. Please read the blog post before posting your ideas and keep the discussion civil.

All posts not directly related to tournament development will be moved or removed.

GL,
-B

[The Minder]

#1 DB Schema

First. Post the tourney db schema so that we can write our own scripts/reports. It's been done for cash game data, why not for tourney data?

Second. The db needs to inherently separate data by tourney size. I'd recommend a key that identifies:

HU SnG
single table SnG,
two table SnG,
3 table SnG
5 table SnG
10 table SnG
20 table SnG
MTT small ('small' as defined by hero)
MTT big ('big' as defined by hero), and
Rebuys (Rebuys might need to be linked to another style)


Better still, allow the user to define the key's parameters.

Reasoning. All of these tournies play differently and amalgamating all styles into a single HUD or report representation is misleading. Additionally, such a key would allow for a greater range of tourney specific reports.

[The Minder]

#2 HUD

~ Having hero HUD data reset every time hero changes a table is (takes a deep breath)... not good. The argument that "most tourney players know what their stats are so don't need to be reminded" is incorrect. I don't know what my stats are for 18 man SnG vs 2000 man MTT and I'm pretty sure HM can't tell me. Resetting the HUD data puts hero at a disadvantage as he/she can monitor everyone else, but not themselves!

~ Currently, HUD data can be switched from current to session stats. Great for ring players, meaningless for tourney players as the underlying data is to broad (contains ALL tourney data for a villain). I propose a new system where the HUD data can be switched from:
current (that particular tourney), to
tourney (all data for that particular tourney style, eg 10 table SnGs), to
global, all tourney data for villain(s).


I'll take a break now and let others from the gang join in.

[Talsac]

Be great if we had a ROI in the HUD :)

[sashasharpley]

In addition to all other filters mentioned in 1st post - please include double ups and any other variations such as triple ups (iPoker and Pacific) etc

[sashasharpley]

Sharkscope has a feature that allows you to work out your success based on time of day, day of the week you played etc. I find this a very useful feature.

[jurrasstoil]

Some additional Result Filters would be great. like the mentioned "time of day" etc. and the possibility to have graphs for these Filters.

In addition i'd like to filter for Tourney Type and Size in the Hands and Reports tab. ATM all Hands are just filtered by level, which is somewhat pointless if you play MTTs and SNGs for example.

A very useful addition to the HUD would be a feature that allows me to use different "# of players" depending on the samplesize of hands.
e.g. I'm down to 4handed in 9man SNG and there are 2 players I have big samples on and 1 player who I'm playing for the first time. Now I'd like to filter more precisely for the 2 players for like exactly 4handed or 4-5handed and the 1 unknown player for 2-9handed (ie all hands).

[sashasharpley]

To be able to filter for hands where I lost my entire stack with an additional filter where I can specify min/max blinds lost when busting out - also to filter this for villains - ie when hero busted villain by taking his entire stack

[cirobonano]

Filter on DONs and/or Turbo / Super Turbo would really be my #1 priority

[sashasharpley]

Filter HUD so that only stats show up for type of tourney being played. Obviously, HUD stats for a DON would be wildly different to a 3 pay out turbo. At the moment if the same player plays both, you have no idea how diffrent he plays between the 2.

Basically you should have the option of combining or separating HUD stats based speed and type.

[a.k.a.Also]

I've always thought that the active players tab, (apart from the standard 6max cash stats range issue which has been raised loads of times), is that the old grid for starting hands looked far more useful as it used to be, when we dont have hundreds of hands on villain.
I found this old post when I was searching for a screenshot of the old hands grid.
http://forums.holdemmanager.com/hud-suggestions-closed/3309-active-player-details-window-display-mode.html

Start hooking this into Minders filter ideas for different types of games, and then mix in what stage of the tourney we're interested in and we're really getting somewhere.

Ought to add satellites into the list too, whole different dynamic at play in those.

Sorry for the hasty post - I'll be back when I have more time to devote to this.

And minder - post away pls, sounds to me as if you're way ahead on what is needed, I'll just add the +1's and nod enthusiastically in agreement.

[The Minder]

#3 Reports

Tourney > Reports > Select Report Name from List
Reports need to be segregated so that cash reports are not available under the Tourney tab, and tourney reports not available under the Cash Games tab, unless appropriate.

For instance, a new tourney player who buys HM and then selects any of the Plugging Leaks reports against tourney data is going to be mislead by the HM responses/analysis.

Reports such as 'Holecards' can be mixed across cash/tourney, however for tourney data the columns need to be redefined. The '$' needs to be replaced with 'T$', 'bb/100' permanently deleted and I suggest '3Bet%' also is removed. Same same for 'Hand At Showdown', 'Hand Groupings', etc reports.

In short, we need reports with a tourney focus, not cash game reports made available to tourney data.

For instance, I'd like to see a report that displayed VPIP, PFR, AGF (plus maybe some other stats like ROI and ITM) aggregated by levels within tourney types. Something like this (don't hold me to the actual numbers):
STT - Max to 1/2 Max Players
STT - 1/2 Max to ITM Players
2 Table SnG - Max to 1/2 Max Players
2 Table SnG - 1/2 Max to ITM Players
3 Table SnG - Max to 2/3 Max Players
3 Table SnG - 2/3 Max to 1/3 Max Players
3 Table SnG - 1/3 Max to ITM Players
5 Table same as 3 Table
10 Table (probably) same as 3 Table
MTT Small - Group into multiples of blind levels (say 5 levels per group) until ITM, then group into 4 equal subgroups for ITM but NOT including FT.
MTT Big - As for MTT Small except have 8 subgroups post ITM... again, FT to be excluded.

Something like this:

<iframe width='680' height='450' frameborder='0' src='http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=t_iXKCQ156ASl6GlEgKKOGA&single=true&gid=13&range=C6%3AI25&output=html&widget=true'></iframe>

Any data collected during the rebuy period of a tourney needs to be isolated from the above reports... hell, I'd prefer if HM didn't collect data during the rebuy period at all as the potential to screw up meaningful analysis is just too high.

[The Minder]

This would also be good, so that tourney players can minimize workspace just like the cash guys/gals can.

http://forums.holdemmanager.com/113943-post460.html

[B-Money]

Thanks for the discussion everyone. Nice to have a single place to see what tournament players want. Next week I'll be out of the office all week, but when I return I'll start compiling a list of the tourney features mentioned here and giving them a priority. Some of the things mentioned above we can't do due to technical reasons, other things we can do. I'll address it all when I get back.

Thanks,
-B

[The Minder]

I'll be happy if just half the effort that went in Rush goes into tourney.

[Pupp3tMast3r]

Most of the stuff that has been posted makes sense, but a lot of it is really advanced stuff.

In my opinion the priorities would be:

- adding a filter on the hand selection for the tournament BUYIN price (so we can study how we played in 100$ buyin as opposed to 3$ buyin as opposed to a freeroll for example)

- adding the option to keep hero stats when moving tables from the last 3 (or X to be specified) tables on (chances are 3-4 people of your last 3 tables will end up with you at the final table)

- adding the option to switch hud stats between the type of tournament you're playing (satelite, sng, KO tournament, etc.)

- adding a feature that will analyze your results (ROI in particular) based on the time of the day, type of game (sng, etc) and day of the week you're playing (say monday at 11am you would usually have all the grinders / good players on -- it's going to be tougher than say Saturday at 5pm when all the blue collars play their weekly 3$ buyin fun game

- adding a selecting hand feature for bustouts in tournaments

These shouldn't be hard to implement using the already existing code (I'm a programmer myself so I'm not randomly just saying that :D )

[The Minder]

Welcome Pupp3t-dude, and thanks heaps for your input.

I agree that nothing proposed ITT is difficult from a coding perspective (yep, old code cutter since '82), PROVIDED the db/tables are set up right to begin with.

[a.k.a.Also]

Ok, carrying on with my Active Player window thoughts.

In keeping with Minders "smell the data" ;) , here's one I keep sniffing around and wondering how much better the info could be presented?

If you go to big hands tab, set BB w/l to 0, we can get all hands villain was involved in, sort on every column in the table, and see betting patterns, position, board etc. Being able to click straight through to replay the hand is a really handy feature.


In this example of 107 hands, villain has only shown down 4, which just reinforces my earlier post that a heatmap grid is next to useless.

Wonder why still only two pages (just) devoted to the APW in the most recent manual?
Strikes me there are indeed a ton of stats hidden inside - why aren't we making more use of them?


Afterthought- Could the bet sizes be added to this output, maybe in BB's? Villains stacksize/M would also be really useful.


http://i416.photobucket.com/albums/pp243/GBUK/activeplayers.jpg

[sashasharpley]

Very important to be able to filter for number of players remaining in STT (not number of players in hand as per cash). This way you can filter for just bubble stage say and of course ability to run other filters at same time such as , effective stacks, busted out, etc etc

[pelerin]

Filter for Dons in the results tab please, a few dons mixed up with normal SNGs really messes the results up.

[crackin]

add the possiblity to show hourly and ev-hourly w/ bonus+rb.
nice thread

[sashasharpley]

Can we have this whole subject as a sticky so that it is much more prominent? It is starting to get hidden.

Surely 50% of players out there are stt/mtt players and i have always thought that hem has developed the tourney section almost as an afterthought and has never really taken it as seriously as it should.

I hope that that is about to change.

[The Minder]

Just as an update. B-Money was going to be away for a week and on his return this thread would be picked up again. I think he's due back 1 Feb-ish.

Anyway, the reason I haven't been posting more is because B-Money mentioned that some of the things posted itt were not technically possible. I think it's appropriate that we get those issues resolved before launching into a raft of new/improved functionality that may be based on those technical impossibilities... if you get my meaning.

Nonetheless, you folks have posted some great ideas here and I hope it continues.

huge +1 for this thread to be stickied.

[jfly]

Not sure if this is already in the works but it would be really useful if the HUD filtered stats between ante and non-ante blinds. A lot of MTT players have very tight stats for the 1st hour of non-ante play but when antes kick in they really start opening up.

[braminc]

Several other things im surprised havent been mentioned:

1) Can we have a way to separate SuperTurbo stats from other SNG formats? Mixing these 2 stats together is very misleading and renders stats pretty much useless.

2) One step further, will it ever be possible to have Hud stats like:
-Folds to PF allin
-PF shoves (With positional popups)

-if we could add these we would very much need to change the "Steal" stats to apply only to NON-allins.

3) Can we have a way to quickly view a players UNfiltered stats? Many times if we have stats filtered by # of players we end up readless and i would still like to see how they played earlier in the tournament.


Thanks for even having this thread and taking the time to read all our ideas!

[The Minder]

Great post Braminc. Your point about separating super turbos is appropriate, and indicative of how dissimilar all of the tourney variants are and how important that all data is segregated accordingly. If we get nothing else from this thread, I hope this one issue gets resolved.

[B-Money]

Hi,

I'm back and I got lots of catching up to do. I'll try to go through the responses later today or tomorrow and give you guys an update.

Thanks,
-B

[TomoDaK]

+1 for ability to recognize/seperate the tournament types
+1 to braminc post though I think the current steal stats + filtering is a pretty good option for looking at people PF tendencies in the push/fold stages

I think a great option for the HUD with SnGs would be filtering the stats by last X hands, sometimes if a few people suddenly bust I have little info on player as the unfiltered stats don't necessarily do me too much good if I'm deep in a game. I think being able to look at last 20 hands or w/e is a much nicer option

Ability to filter hero stats. They'd be a lot more useful if I can go look I'm 7/7 over the last 15 hands than oh I'm im 18/14 over the past 50 hands which gives me no indication of whether I've been active recently

[Xiku]

I don't know if this is on topic but a feature I always wanted was:
by clicking on the stats of a certain player, getting an option to review all the hands we ever played against that opponent, or all the hands we ever saw him play till showdown.

[B-Money]

I knew good things would come from this thread. I'm removing the sticky because I'd rather focus my efforts on getting the development work done than monitoring this thread. Thanks again for all the suggestions! It makes seeing what tournament players want very simple.

If your suggestion is not listed here it's not possible or the amount of work to do it doesn't pay off VS how useful it is for all tournament players. Feel free to reply if you disagree, but I'd rather focus on development work than this thread. :-) I think there are a ton of great ideas here and after compiling this list I'm excited to get some of these in there.

Here's my thoughts after seeing everything on one piece of paper.

First get some Tournament Specific reports so you can analyze tournament play in the Reports more efficiently.
Next, focus on some HUD Filters. Not sure if we can do them all because it will severely complicate things for average users. Since the HUD is shared between cash and tourney I'm not sure if it's technically possible without a big code rewrite either. I'll find out soon though. If you have a suggestion to uncomplicate this for average users I'm all ears too.
There's a simple UI tweak for the Refresh button, that's super simple.


Keep in mind we can't do everything suggested because we have to balance bugs/feature requests & general HM development. Adding a couple tournament reports will be huge and that's what I want to focus on first. It's also some of the easier development work along with a common duplicated request.

Nothing in this list is final - it's the first draft of designing these features so they can be added to HM.

Excuse the formatting below, it was cut and pasted from the WORD doc I created for this.


Reports
• # of players in tournament report
o HU
o 1 Table
o 2 Table
o 3-10 Table
o 10+ Table
Giving users control over customizing these parameters sounds much more complicated than just making tournament specific reports for everyone to use but I'll run it by Programming and see what they say.

• Tournament Type Report
o Regular
o Turbo
o Super Turbo
o DON's
o TON's
o Other
• Replace $ with T$ for tournament specific reports
• Tourney Buyin Report
o $0-$2.50
o $2.50-$5
o $5-$10
o $10-$25
o $25-$50
o $50-$100
o $100-$200
o $200 +
• Tournament Bustout Hand Report
o Hero Bustout Hands
o Villain Bustout Hands (Hands Hero Busted Villain)



HUD Filters
• # of players in tournaments (IE MTT VS STT)
• Don't reset HUD Filters when changing tables. (Good for Cash, but not tourney players)
• Filter for Regular/DON's/Turbo/SuperTurbo
• Filter for Ante/Non Ante.
• Double Click Tourney HUD to remove All filters on tournament hands


New Tourney Stats
This is more of a global stat overhaul that is planned in the future.

MISC
• Sharkscope has a feature that allows you to work out your success based on time of day, day of the week you played etc. I find this a very useful feature. B-Money - Cool feature and something that can be used globally across HM/OM.
• http://forums.holdemmanager.com/113943-post460.html Image here explains it all. Good idea. Just duplicate the Refresh button to B in the picture.
• Active Player Details Window - A very few % of people use this window and I'd rather focus development efforts on things everyone can use like new reports, etc. Not saying we'll never update this, but there are much higher priorities in my mind.


GL,
B-Money

[The Minder]

B-

Thanks for your response. I'm going to take a day to go thru what you've posted but my initial reaction is somewhere between 'baby got back' and the 'hallelujah chorus'.

Again, many thanks for listening to us tourney guys/gals.

[MASTERHOLMES]

http://forums.holdemmanager.com/manager-general/27169-what-filters-use-m.html

just like to be able to filter for the m, cost per round when replaying my tourney hands so I can tell when I should be pushing according to that tourney strategy

[The Minder]

B-Money. I've basically taken your post and added some comments. If some of your words are missing from my post then you can take it I have no comment or am happy with what you said.


First get some Tournament Specific reports so you can analyze tournament play in the Reports more efficiently. I'd really, really recommend you find out from tourney players what they want to see as column headers. Please do NOT use ring game headers.
Next, focus on some HUD Filters. Not sure if we can do them all because it will severely complicate things for average users. Since the HUD is shared between cash and tourney I'm not sure if it's technically possible without a big code rewrite either. I'll find out soon though. If you have a suggestion to uncomplicate this for average users I'm all ears too. This is one where Roy will have to bite the bullet. Either HM is going to provide tourney players with an accurate HUD, or it's not. Is a simple choice.
There's a simple UI tweak for the Refresh button, that's super simple. Cool... I thought this might be an easy one.

Reports
• # of players in tournament report
o HU. This is for HU SnGs right... two entrants only... not HU at the end of a tourney?
o 1 Table
o 2 Table
o 3-10 Table. I recommend a break < 10
o 10+ Table I still think this needs to be split. My gut feel is that there is a considerable difference between a 20 table SnG and a 5,000 person MTT.

Giving users control over customizing these parameters sounds much more complicated than just making tournament specific reports for everyone to use but I'll run it by Programming and see what they say. I'd really, really like to be able to set my own parameters. For instance, I might want to do a finer breakdown on SnGs whereas a gun MTT player might want to do the same for MTTs. Choosing our own parameters is the only option that's pretty well guaranteed to please everyone.

• Tournament Type Report
o Regular
o Turbo
o Super Turbo
o DON's
o TON's
o Other

Rebuys and rebuy data is still a problem. IF others are in agreement, I'd recommend that HM does not record hands during a rebuy period.

• Replace $ with T$ for tournament specific reports
• Tourney Buyin Report
o $0-$2.50
o $2.50-$5
o $5-$10
o $10-$25
o $25-$50
o $50-$100
o $100-$200
o $200 +
This is not a big deal for me, but I can understand how other tourney players might be drooling with anticipation.

• Tournament Bustout Hand Report
o Hero Bustout Hands
o Villain Bustout Hands (Hands Hero Busted Villain)
If this refers to oft requested “all-in” report for analysis, then I'm all for it. In fact, I'm drooling. :)


HUD Filters
• # of players in tournaments (IE MTT VS STT)
• Don't reset HUD Filters when changing tables. (Good for Cash, but not tourney players) I think I just wet my pants! I still think the option of the user being able to reset HUD stats (as if he was sitting at a new table) is required... specially in Rebuys/Addons, pre/post ITM of tourneys etc. :o
• Filter for Regular/DON's/Turbo/SuperTurbo
• Filter for Ante/Non Ante.
• Double Click Tourney HUD to remove All filters on tournament hands. Would like more of an idea of what can be done here.



Again, thanks heaps for taking an interest. If you need alpha testers gimme a hoy... I'm sure I can round up 5-10 other tourney/HM guys/gals. Would also be great if you can continue monitoring this thread and giving us an update on what's happening within HM. Nope, not gonna hold you to any time frames.

Regards

[cirobonano]

• Tournament Type Report
o Regular
o Turbo
o Super Turbo
o DON's
o TON's
o Other

If you are going to do this, please make it in such a way that one can compare really any different tournament type. DONs can be turbo or non-turbo, they can be 6max or 10max, etc

Say I play
- 10 player SNG
- 10 player SNG Turbo
- 10 player don turbo
- 6 max SNG
- 6 max SNG Turbo
- 6 max DON Turbo
and I want to know which one has the highest winrate, then I'd like to see them all separated, just as 10NL/50NL/100NL are different games now when a cash player selects the "stakes" report.

[The Minder]

+1 ^^

[_Loki_]

^^

What DO those pointy breasts symbols signify in posts ? Is it shorthand for 'bump' maybe ?

I am a legs-man myself

[The Minder]

What DO those pointy breasts symbols signify in posts ? Is it shorthand for 'bump' maybe ?

I am a legs-man myself
Might be some hidden science in that... tourney players like boobs, ring players like legs.

Anyway, ^^ means 'last post'... ie, up there.

[_Loki_]

Very gud :D Trouble is I've got this forum set so previous posts are below...
like this: VV (ie - you will note that 'she' is face down & gravity makes 'em bigger & more pointy: compare & contrast ^^ with VV

I played 12 PS regional freerolls last week & this week to experiment with tournaments (see if I liked them) & judging by the avatars (& standard of play) not only do SOME tourney players like breasts - they must still be suckling :)

I did OK, but anyway big MTTs are not for me - they take up far too much time when the field is in the 1,000's [maybe I should avoid the freerolls & see if there's more meat when entrants have to pay?]

I reckon I'll try those FPP small field tourneys next - while I'm there I'll conduct a legs versus breasts survey & report back

[The Minder]

@Loki You bring up a great point, and one that I've been trying to hammer in the HM developers ever since I bought HM. The point being that MTTs are not only different to cash games, they have stages within a single MTT that play totally different.

The relatively cheap buyin also means that the quality of the field can be somewhat questionable... as you discovered. And of course, the attraction of MTTs is that a player could potentially turn a couple of dollars into several million (a la Moneymaker).

Don't give up on tourney play just yet mate. Try something down around 45/90 player SnG. They can be a hoot.

[_Loki_]

Will do - I'll do exactly that
I'll try to see if I can turn my FPP's into T $'s & then trade 'em for real world $'s
Also try some $ tourneys

BTW - Do you know of any decent tourney poker tracker software ?

[The Minder]

Will do - I'll do exactly that
I'll try to see if I can turn my FPP's into T $'s & then trade 'em for real world $'s
Also try some $ tourneys

BTW - Do you know of any decent tourney poker tracker software ?

If you're talking about play management/analysis software, there's really only 3. HM, PT3 and PokerOffice. I haven't used PO so couldn't give an opinion. As to HM and PT3, I don't think it's rocket science to say that HM comes from a cash background and PT3 has a tourney background. Just using the two programs for 30 minutes makes that distinction very clear. Don't forget that both programs are trying to cover a huge scope and that any minor shortfalls should be taken in stride.

I'm not trying to tell you how to suck eggs, but tourney play is all about what you do preflop. Cash play is more concerned with action across all streets. So, if tourney play is so biased to pre-flop action, what then are the two main questions tourney players need tracking software to answer... Did I do it right (in that instance), and am I doing it right (in all instances)?

That means I need to know some essentials like "did I get my chips in the pot with the best hand pre-flop" and "what is my VPIP/PFR/AF for each style of tourney".

PT3 can answer one of those questions straight off the bat and partially answer the other. HM can not answer either, imo. Hopefully, with some of the ideas put forward in this thread, HM will answer both questions, and more.

Edit: I forget to mention HUDs. I've been experimenting lately with not running a HUD during a tourney (cash game guys would have a heart attack at the thought of not having a HUD... just go read the thread(s) on Rush poker) and to be honest I didn't miss it.

[_Loki_]

Thnx


I forget to mention HUDs. I've been experimenting lately with not running a HUD during a tourney (cash game guys would have a heart attack at the thought of not having a HUD... just go read the thread(s) on Rush poker) and to be honest I didn't miss it.

Strangely enough ~ speaking as a cash player I'm using less HUD stats (down to 4 inc. abb name & # hands) & more (much more) the notes & pop ups when a new guy joins the table - But then I regard 3 tables at once as mass multi-tabling

Villain betting patterns (what does it mean when they raise 4bb?) & who to tilt (or reassure) by showing my cards is best handled in the notes. I'm not sure all this is of value in tourneys though given the huge player base

For me Rush poker is like folk music, golf or religion - it's fine as long as it's not compulsary for me to get involved :D

[The Minder]

Thnx

For me Rush poker is like folk music, golf or religion - it's fine as long as it's not compulsary for me to get involved :D

Ok numbnuts... get your azz over here and clean the coffee off my monitor!

But I agree... the HUD is becoming less important to my game.

[gp18089]

Filter by tournament type and buyin please. As PokerTracker does.

[UWjoe]

filter stats by blind level ranges for sngs

so for 45 mans i want to filter <100-200 bbs 100-200+antes-400-800 and 600-1200+



toggle hud stats on/off icon

i prefer to play earlygame hudless 90% of the time and at some stacksize/blind level (which varies slightly game to game) id like to toggle the hud on

currently the default is to turn the hud on automatically for new tables and id prefer to be able to set my default to be the opposite and have a quick handy way of activating a hud when it becomes usefull (looking at 20 TID#s and trying to find the one table i want to activate the hud for is not practical)





in the reports tab would it be possible to filter MY stats based on BUY IN or DATE RANGE or # of tables (MT RATIO) and or blind levels


wondering if theres a way to check how/if ive changed my gameplay during difering periods for specific sngs (largely to help myself plug leaks i naturally aquire as i add more tables to my sessions and lose roi%s)




the ability to create a custom limp/fold% stat that can be set to only include hands from a specific blind level or above. the same stat wiht a chance to filter for stack size ranges would be helpfull too

[The Minder]

Let's get this fixed http://forums.holdemmanager.com/manager-general/27507-how-filter-hu-sngs-vs-specific-player.html

See Fozzy's comments itt.

[sashasharpley]

I would like to be able to see individual graphs for number of tables I play simultaneously - basically a visual representation through time of the multitabling option in Stats tab (+ trending of this).

This way I will be able to see how my roi/itm etc alters based on number of tables I play - so how does my 6 tabling graph look through time versus say my 12 tabling graph (the 6 versus 12 would not necessarily need to be seen within the same graph is this is unfeasible but at least to be able to switch from one to another would be great).

This could be done by simply adding a multitabling drop down box within the tourney results filters section.

Thanks.

[sashasharpley]

To be able to filter for last x number of games (could be in bottom section where u have last x number of hands etc). Currently if I want to see what my performance is over the last 500 games, say, I need to play around with the dates until I approximate that number of games.

Thanks.

[AKQJ10]

I'm only three pages in so apologies if this has been suggested at the end of this thread. (I searched for "tags" and didn't see it.)




• Tournament Type Report
o Regular
o Turbo
o Super Turbo
o DON's
o TON's
o Other


Count me as +1, although it sounds like this has made the cut.

However, I'd suggest you implement this stuff partially via user-defined tags, not just hard-coded predetermined categories. Apparently Poker sites (especially Stars) have the ability to invent new tourney formats faster than any of us can keep up with them.

Here are some of the formats I would like to tag and track:

sats and super sats - others have mentioned these - especially the token sats on FT that have a fixed structure.

ante up tourneys on Stars, a bizarre structure with fixed blinds and increasing antes.

huge add-on tourneys on Stars - e.g. $5 rebuy $25 add-on.

Point is, Stars (in particular) is going to keep inventing these formats, so I need the flexibility to tag them in ways that makes sense to me. Perhaps the UI could somehow suggest preexisting tags (even ones that ship with the product) to the user and allow simple creation of a new one if none of the existing ones is desired.

[sashasharpley]

To be able to view profit per game alongside roi/itm stats both in the tourney results filters global section and in the stats tab section (multitabling, daily, monthly etc).

Thanks.

[The Minder]

Great, great posts by Sasha and AK.

[The Minder]

Tourney > Pre Flop Cards

To be able to filter by a single tourney.

[B-Money]

Hi Guys,

Just checking in here. I've been busy with HM video creation lately and there's still some loose ends on the Programming side that need to be tidied up before our tourney push. I'm actually glad we didn't start these changes immediately because some good discussions have happened here that will help guide us in developing these features. Thanks for that.:) Tourney feature hit list is still being discussed internally and final decisions on what features make the cut along with a priority list will be made shortly. I'll provide updates when I can.

I talked about videos above. Check out our blog that highlights every single video currently available for HM users. We're also working on ways to promote this content better because we do plan to constantly add videos. Tourney specific ones too.
The Official Blog for the Hold'Em Manager Community (http://blogs.holdemmanager.com/)

I'm also creating a tip of the month video. I'll launch this later today or tomorrow on the blog as well. I'll continue to do a blog post about Tip of the Month type of stuff moving forward. Probably not a video every time because they take time to create, but at the bare minimum some detailed text.

GL,
-B

[_Loki_]

Why not email your customer DB quarterly (with an email opt-out option) ? Many of them who don't visit the forums will not know about add-on products etc
Must be costing you loadsamoney

[B-Money]

Why not email your customer DB quarterly (with an email opt-out option) ? Many of them who don't visit the forums will not know about add-on products etc
Must be costing you loadsamoney

Thanks for the heads up.

First newsletter was sent out last month. Did you not get one? We'll probably be making one about video content soon too. Videos will be linked from main HM site in the future and probably at the top of the forums as well. Still deciding on how best to do this. For now, that blog post has all the links to current video content. Kind of want to make sure there are no issues with all the videos before I do a big marketing campaign with videos being the main content of that campaign. Soft launch for blog readers and tourney thread readers. :-)

-B

[The Minder]

... I talked about videos above. Check out our blog that highlights every single video currently available for HM users. We're also working on ways to promote this content better because we do plan to constantly add videos. Tourney specific ones too. ...-B

It has taken more than a year to get RVG to even listen to complaints about the lack of tourney capability within HM, so my preference is that this thread not be hijacked for non tourney issues. Because of the underlying issues with HM incorrectly managing tourney data I sincerely doubt that any of the videos are pertinent to tourney players.

[The Minder]

I'm posting this here even tho it's a bug.

The image is from an O8 tourney on Stars... one where the blinds remain at $5/$5 and antes increase every 10 minutes or so. The image shows many hands that were essentially flatted preflop and then folded post flop. HM colours the majority of these hands as 'losers' even though the call was for $5. As this is the 'normal' play for this type of tourney I feel that the hands shouldn't be listed in red.

Additionally, this type of tourney makes a mockery of VPIP stats... don't they :)

[anonconmatt]

I'd also like to reiterate the desire for a way to filter your own stats in the HUD for last X hands. In addition to this, I'd love to be able to see how many pots I've won without showdown in my HUD.

[fenhir]

Please do something to switch at least between rebuy and not-rebuy-hands.

For example with the help from the HUD: At Fulltilt put those hands which are stored when the rebuy-button is visible on the table in another cathegory than normal MTT-Hands.

Or offer a switch for rebuy-MTTs to choose different cathegories for hands until level 7 and after that.

[00000815]

Reports
• # of players in tournament report
o HU
o 1 Table
o 2 Table
o 3-10 Table
o 10+ Table
Giving users control over customizing these parameters sounds much more complicated than just making tournament specific reports for everyone to use but I'll run it by Programming and see what they say.
I dont think we need control, but we need the games we play, you can use pretty much the same a OPR:
2
3-4
7-10
11-18
19-45
46-90
91-180
181-360
361-1000
1001-3000
3001-6000
6001+
5 tables
10 tables





• Tournament Type Report
o Regular
o Turbo
o Super Turbo
o DON's
o TON's
o Other
• Replace $ with T$ for tournament specific reports
• Tourney Buyin Report
o $0-$2.50
o $2.50-$5
o $5-$10
o $10-$25
o $25-$50
o $50-$100
o $100-$200
o $200 +
• Tournament Bustout Hand Report
o Hero Bustout Hands
o Villain Bustout Hands (Hands Hero Busted Villain)

I dont see why we need all these as reports, I want TourneyType, Stakes, and Date as filters, so that i can run specific reports over a selected sample of tourneys.


HUD Filters
• Don't reset HUD Filters when changing tables. (Good for Cash, but not tourney players)
Why? Actually as a multitabler I like it the way it is. You need to know what your image on a table is.

[00000815]

i'd suggest you add Finsh distribution somewhere, should be the complete FD at least up to 180 mans MTTSNGs and for larger fieldt mtt we need something like;

10% Early E (first 10% to burst out)
20% Early-Middle EM (10%-30%)
40% Middle M (30%-70%)
20% Middle-Late ML (70%-90%)
10% Late L (90%-%100)
ITM

[00000815]

I'd suggest a custom report such that we can crosscheck the ranges we get (we need to plugin) from the wiz.

a) shoving ranges
Player openshoves
0-3BB: steal succ
3-5BB: st s
..
13-15BB: st s
for each pos: SB, BTN, CO, HJ, MP, EP

b) calling ranges:
BTN shoves
0-3BB -> SB calls x%, BB calls y%
3-5BB -> SB ...
5-7BB
...

same for CO,HJ, ...

[00000815]

I'd suggest a BBL and a Final- Table filter, since I like to review especially bbl and FT-play of my MTT-SNG sessions.

Basically we need an FT filter for this to work, since we know if we play with 6 players or less we are either on the bbl or at a FT

[The Minder]

• Don't reset HUD Filters when changing tables. (Good for Cash, but not tourney players)



Why? Actually as a multitabler I like it the way it is. You need to know what your image on a table is.

Unfortunately, with the HUD resetting every time you change table, your about the only person who doesn't know what your image is. And unlike cash games where table image is important, in tourneys it's tourney image that's important. Every1 at your table running a HUD knows what your image is, except you.

Ever played that game where you sit at a table with some mates and you all put a card on your forehead and then bet who has the highest/lowest card? You can see every1 else's card but not your own. That's what it's like with a resetting HUD in a tourney.

There are other reasons why your HUD should not reset (unless you want it to) but my original request was for the HUD to not reset but for me to have control and reset it when I want it to happen... say after a rebuy period ends, I get ITM or FT etc.

[The Minder]

I'd suggest a BBL and a Final- Table filter, since I like to review especially bbl and FT-play of my MTT-SNG sessions.

Basically we need an FT filter for this to work, since we know if we play with 6 players or less we are either on the bbl or at a FT
Not true I'm afraid. PS has 6-max tourneys and SnGs that can often get to 3 players wihtout being on the bubble or FT and I think they are also running some 4-max MTT/SnGs... same same for shootouts.

That's our (tourney players) problem, there are so many tournament variations with little common ground. I think we need RVG to provide a key that splits tourneys up into every imaginable type and then let the filters/reports take over from there.

[The Minder]

Anyway, great suggestions 00000815... keep em coming.

Btw, ever thought of putting a noun into your screen name? :)

[00000815]

Not true I'm afraid. PS has 6-max tourneys and SnGs that can often get to 3 players wihtout being on the bubble or FT and I think they are also running some 4-max MTT/SnGs... same same for shootouts.

lets say, if you first filter for 90man MTTSNG
with an additional filter FT=no (HEM just needs to calc the total chips at your table to get this information) you get exactly the FT-BBL if you filter for less than 7 players

[fenhir]

BTW on final-table or in Sngs:

When we switch to 6 players I want to show only stats with 6 players. Same for heads-up then... This works.

Unfortunately the stats-arrangement also changes then and switches to 6max. Do I really have to setup the Hud for that or can I stop that behaviour?

I want the stats itself change (the numbers)... but not the arrangement as it is still a 9max-table.

Ok, I could copy the arrangement for 9max-touneys and activate it for 6max and 2max, too... But this will get complicated because I play HU-tourneys, too... And I want different stats for HU-turneys on a HU-Table than on a 9max-table because I have so many stats on HU-tables which doesnt fit to 9max-tables.

[00000815]

.. but my original request was for the HUD to not reset but for me to have control and reset it when I want it to happen

maybe with infinite resources I could agree, but since they are not, we need to discuss.
I think you are wrong, I just dont see what filters you want to apply to get stats for hero so that hero can figure how he is perceived at the current table. If you have stats one a V you can assume he has stats on you, but if you filter, you will actually never know which stats that V has collected vs you. ON top of that if you have more than one V with stats and you filter again you rather will confuse yourself.

The point about hero stats set to 0 after reseating is this:
a) your current table stats will show your 'exact' image for players that you have never met before
b) all other players with signficant samples will likely have significant samples on you, thus your image (for them) will likely be close to your overall strategy

[The Minder]

maybe with infinite resource i could agree, but since they are not, we need to discuss.
What 'infinite resources'? If you're referring to developer resources within RVG, then to be honest it is way past time RVG started providing tourney support. If you're refering to client computer resources, I don't see there being any load difference between a cash game table (where the HUD is not resetting) and an MTT table (where the HUD is resetting).


I think you are wrong, I just dont see what filters you want to apply to get stats for hero so that hero can figure how he is perceived at the current table.
At this stage we are still trying to determine exactly which filters would be useful. Either way, I really don't give a damn how hero is perceived. In an MTT/SnG, tables reform every couple of minutes so whatever the 'perception' is of hero it's only going to last a short time and I doubt villains would make many decisions based on such little 'perception'.


If you have stats one a V you can assume he has stats on you, but if you filter, you will actually never know which stats that V has collected vs you. ON top o that if you more than one V with stats and you filter again you rather will confuse yourself.
Sorry, this just doesn't make sense to me. I think there is a language difficulty here.


The point about hero stats set to 0 after reseating is this:
a) your current table stats will show your 'exact' image for players that you have never met before
Again, this does not make sense.


b) all other players with signficant samples will likely have significant samples on you, thus your image (for them) will likely be close to your overall strategy
Agreed, but the point is that you will never know how you are performing RIGHT NOW, whereas the villains will know.

I really see no point in turning the HUD against the very person it is supposed to be helping... the hero. And that's exactly what happens every time the HUD resets.

[skobotinc1]

Would it be possible to set up a way to see an average percentage of players' stacks that they put into pots relative to blind levels/pot size somehow, instead of just VPIP and AF numbers? If so, that would be very helpful for determining who's overly aggressive while multitabling STT's imo.

[Bodom]

1. Allow use to filter hud stats by blind levels
2. Make blind levels distinguish between ante and non-ante (100/200 is much different then 100/200/25)
3. Allow us to filter HUD, Results and Reports by tounament type (SNG/MTT)
4. Improve ICM support (Sit'n'go wizard-like)

[BlackPersian]

1. Let the miracle become true and solve the Buyin, Result etc problems with Ongame and iPoker :( :( :(

2. Stats depending on Blind Level.

3. SNG Wiz Support/Plugin/Funcuality

Then I am a happy man...

[braminc]

this might be great for tourneys AND cash:

a hotkey to change hero hud to showing all MY stats in hands vs HU opponent in that hand.

is this even possible?

[Falexander]

Hi. I only have my M and my opponents M:s shown in the hud. But when blinds goes up the M doesnt change until the next hand. And you said earlier that this couldnt be fixed. But there must be someway this can be arranged. I play at Stars so live tracking or what its called isnt possible.
And also when there are antes, the hud miscalculates of like 0,5 either way. Sometimes 1 M wrong and 0,3 and sometimes right. So I cant trust it. And cant use it. Why is this? I have the latest version of hem.

Thanks

fredrik

[fenhir]

Hi. I only have my M and my opponents M:s shown in the hud. But when blinds goes up the M doesnt change until the next hand. And you said earlier that this couldnt be fixed. But there must be someway this can be arranged. I play at Stars so live tracking or what its called isnt possible.

Use Pokershortcuts for Stars and FTP for the live-M until HEM gets figured out how to do this.

[sashasharpley]

It would be great if you could integrate into the re-player SNG Wizard and also the Nash equilibrium engine re-player used, say, by Poker Hound. This really would separate HEM from the competition.

Perhaps a deal could be done with these companies à la Leak Buster. Those who have already purchased both of the above already would not need to do so again in order to be able to use it within HEM . Those who have not would need to do so.

I see this arrangement as benefiting all 3 companies.

Is the above possible? Feedback would be appreciated.

[cirobonano]

BTW there's some new suggestion system; I posted my suggestion here: http://forums.holdemmanager.com/tourney-suggestions/28517-filter-hud-results-reports-detailed-tounament-type.html so we can vote for it.

[sashasharpley]

LOL. Just read on PokerSoftware.com that a deal has already been done. Well done.

Nash also soon?

[herosista]

Well i have small sugestion about Push all inn stat for hud. By this stat should count any raise that is bigger that 60% of players stack.

From time to time i see players making in stg such raises that comitted them to pot.

[evs]

my priorities for the suggestions mentioned for SNGs :

I already use heros stats when stacking to try and see (when next to non multitablers) if I have been stealing a lot - I'd like to be able to see for example if I have raised from the sb 5 out of the last 5 times .
Ability to see stats on regs filtered for blinds or seats whilst still having acess to the non filtered stats.
Have stats for say less than 30% of stack steals to compare with say above 70% commited steals - to apply when blinds are high

[ohbe1canobe]

Hi just wondered when it would be likely to see first tournement report functionality.

Thanks

[The Minder]

Hi just wondered when it would be likely to see first tournement report functionality.

Thanks
I would suggest, not until after the db tables have been redesigned.

[xfg68]

405 members thought today was the day.

[trixcit]

I think the main problem with tournament support is that there seems nobody on the staff who regularly plays tournaments. A lot of issues are easily spotted by anybody playing some tournaments but there isn't much done about them. Play 50 tournaments on each site at different levels and you'd find a lot of bugs or inconveniences.

ie why do I have to set a default buyin for some sites? Did you email the sites asking to add the buyin to their hand history format? Why do I have to enter first $27.50 as buyin+rake and then $2.50 as rake? Why not $25 and $2.50 so it saves me thinking? Why not auto-update the rake with 10% of the buyin when I entered which is in 90% of the cases correct? Why can't I set a default buyin different for each site so I have to import them one by one, keeping track of the setting all the time? etc.

[B-Money]

I think the main problem with tournament support is that there seems nobody on the staff who regularly plays tournaments. A lot of issues are easily spotted by anybody playing some tournaments but there isn't much done about them. Play 50 tournaments on each site at different levels and you'd find a lot of bugs or inconveniences.





I personally play lots of tournaments. You can search me out on the various tournament tracking sites.
Mr SitNGo Wizard himself, Dennis, is now a full-time Holdem Manager Employee. You heard it here first!


I know it seems like it takes forever to get your features. Bear with us. New tournament functionality is coming.

GL,
-B

[_Loki_]

Hi B - small typo somewhere...


Here it says 'try it for 15 days':
SitNGo Wizard (http://www.holdemmanager.com/buy/28/SitNGo+Wizard)

Here Fozzy says '30-day trial'
http://forums.holdemmanager.com/sitngo-wizard/29588-sitngo-wizard-trials.html

I'm guessing Fozzy is right :)

GL wth SNGW

[B-Money]

Thanks,

It's 30 days for the Wizard.

[_Loki_]

How does it work for existing sngw/HM licence owners - do they have to change their licence codes or something so that sngw knows it's not a trail version they're running ?

[herosista]

Mr SitNGo Wizard himself, Dennis, is now a full-time Holdem Manager Employee. You heard it here first!

GL,
-B

If so would be posible to to add hud support at STG Wizzard ?
.That Would be HUGE help with puting oponents on correct ranges ,

[trixcit]

I personally play lots of tournaments. You can search me out on the various tournament tracking sites.

Offtopic, but what are your screennames?

[00000815]

If so would be posible to to add hud support at STG Wizzard ?
.That Would be HUGE help with puting oponents on correct ranges ,
WizHUD (http://www.pokersoftware.com/wizhud-sitandgotool/)

[dubberman27]

I thought the HUD is the meaning of SNGWiz integration....

[B-Money]

How does it work for existing sngw/HM licence owners - do they have to change their licence codes or something so that sngw knows it's not a trail version they're running ?
Not sure of the specifics, It uses SNGW licensing so you'll have to check it out. When I licensed it for Holdem Manager it instantly made my stand alone SNGW registered too. I asked specifically about this and if you own standalone, you own it for Holdem Manager.


If so would be posible to to add hud support at STG Wizzard ?
.That Would be HUGE help with puting oponents on correct ranges ,
Good Point - It's being looked at.


Offtopic, but what are your screennames?
mglmstr

[The Minder]

Tourney > Preflop Cards

Ability to filter onto a single tourney, or group of similar tourneys (eg all $10 x 90 man SnG)

[Soulfan]

eg i play 6max dons turbo and 6max turbo...a filter to make difference between this two in the main window

[fenhir]

How far is the developement for Rush-tournaments? Or has it anyone working and how?

I am still holding back on HEM 1.10.02beta2 with updated hmhud.exe 1.10.03beta1 for Rush because I am in fear any later update breaks Rush-CG.

[The Minder]

How far is the developement for Rush-tournaments? Or has it anyone working and how?

I am still holding back on HEM 1.10.02beta2 with updated hmhud.exe 1.10.03beta1 for Rush because I am in fear any later update breaks Rush-CG.
Agreed... stay where you are. Version 1.11 has too many issues.

[fozzy71]

Please try 1.10.06a. The people that have rush problems with 1.11.00 or 1.11.01 usually get their rush HUD working again by reverting to 1.10.06a. If this is the case the for you, or anyone else, I would like to schedule a teamviewer session so that I can duplicate this on your PC using a special Debugging version of our HUD. Once I get the debug HUD from Mike we can try to get a solution for those of you affected by this.

http://forums.holdemmanager.com/releases/30576-1-11-01-official-release.html

[structure]

I support this thread. Please start putting out some updates and patches for tournament / SNG players. Some more specific filters would be a great start. Cash players have enough stuff

[CeJeH]

Please forgive me for not reading through the last 10 pages, but the HEM tournament software does not track the 90 man KO sngs on FTP properly and I was wondering if anything can be done about it. I play 90 mans for a living and have done very well in them, but according to HEM I am down $20k+ in them, which is obviously not correct.

I'm not sure if the problem is with the way the hands are imported, or if the software just plain doesn't keep track of bounties or what, but it's a big problem for me. TBH, none of the tournament tracking software works for me at all.

I switched to HEM from PT3 because I heard that HEM was far superior for tournaments, yet so far HEM has been nothing but a huge hassle for me. The HUD is great, Tableninjaft is great, and from what I've seen previously sngwiz is great as well (I say previously because, due to the complete lack of tournament tracking so far Ive been unable to use it at all).

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but at this point I'm essentially paying you guys for a hud and the tableninja, yet nothing else (ie: the shit I bought HEM for) works. Perhaps someone can help me out a bit or at least give me some feedback about the 90 man KO sngs. It would be really awesome for me to use all the tools that hem offers to improve my game more, but as of right now ( and the last month and a half) this software has been pretty much worthless to me.

[CeJeH]

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq293/CeJeH/fuckedupgraph2.jpg

This is what I see in my tournament results page. Notice that not only did something obviously get messed up during that stretch in the middle (the 20k line straight down that never happened) but when I try to have HEM show my ev line it doesnt show up. I really hope this is just me doing something wrong and can be fixed easily. It seems like the tracker tracked everything appropriately for everything but that 1 stretch- why I have no idea, but the rest of my numbers seem to be right.

I also play on Cake poker, and despite the fact that I am up in Cake tournaments, the tournament tracker in HEM claims that Ive never even cashed on Cake!! wtf!!

[The Minder]

... I switched to HEM from PT3 because I heard that HEM was far superior for tournaments, yet so far HEM has been nothing but a huge hassle for me....
This post is in the wrong place... I suggest you post in the "Manager General" Area.

As to a comparison of HM to PT3 for tournies/SnG, the information you received is incorrect. HM is the best product on the market for cash games, but not for tourmies... far from it and that's why we have this thread trying to get RVG to do something about this poor support. However, I fear that our chances of getting anything meaningful are reducing daily.

[fenhir]

Please try 1.10.06a. The people that have rush problems with 1.11.00 or 1.11.01 usually get their rush HUD working again by reverting to 1.10.06a...

Rush-tournaments, fozzy... tournaments

The question was:

How far is the developement for Rush-tournaments? Or has it anyone working and how?

[herosista]

[QUOTE=B-Money;
If so would be posible to to add hud support at STG Wizzard ?
.That Would be HUGE help with puting oponents on correct ranges ,

Good Point - It's being looked at.


mglmstr[/QUOTE]

Any News about Tournament Update? SNG Wizzard Hud? Some time had pass ....

[B-Money]

Big update coming!!!

Rush tourneys were working, but they broke for some reason. Definitely trying to get this fixed.

There's also a new effective stack HUD filter. It just works in the replayer right now, and will work in the HUD in a future release.

More tourney features coming, but this is all the big tourney updates for the next build. I won't be answering questions here until the build is out. I'm too busy trying to get the build out. Supposed to be out today, but may creep into the weekend or early next week.

GL,
-B

[The Minder]

Big update coming!!!

Rush tourneys were working, but they broke for some reason. Definitely trying to get this fixed.

There's also a new effective stack HUD filter. It just works in the replayer right now, and will work in the HUD in a future release.

More tourney features coming, but this is all the big tourney updates for the next build. I won't be answering questions here until the build is out. I'm too busy trying to get the build out. Supposed to be out today, but may creep into the weekend or early next week.

GL,
-B

Well, 1.11.02 was well worth the wait for some but I don't see much for tourney players. Any update?

[MicroRoller]

I posted this in the suggestions forum. http://forums.holdemmanager.com/hud-suggestions/32406-hud-session-stats-mtts-across-tables.html

I was in an MTT with 2 tables left. Short handed on each table.

A player I played with earlier in this MTTs gets moved away and then back to the same table as me after it's short handed.

Because of the advanced options to filter based on number of players I use, there is a limited number of hands (now that it's short handed) for this player even though I played dozens of hands with them earlier in the tournament.

Double clicking on the hud to bring up session stats doesn't show any more hands. Only the hands since they've been moved back to the table.

It would be nice if session stats could show all hands from that MTT, not just from that table.

Would this be possible?

[B-Money]

It would be nice if session stats could show all hands from that MTT, not just from that table.

Would this be possible?

Not sure the HUD knows the difference between a cash table and tourney table. I'll ask our HUD guy and we'll get it added if it's possible.

GL,
-B

[Mike chops]

Would everyone agree it would be more useful to not have number of players filters on the session stats?

[Pupp3tMast3r]

Depends. I would consider the last 50 stats. In STTs (single table sngs) for example you might have a 5/5 rock which then all of a sudden as antes kick in moves towards a 30/20 stat. If we keep the session stats it would seem the guy is really tight when in fact he is opening a lot more pots while we're 6 handed (as opposed to 9.)

But in major MTTs it wouldn't be as big of a problem I think. I'm sure there's a way to add this as an option in HEM (for whoever wants it one way or another, right?)

[chap]

Would everyone agree it would be more useful to not have number of players filters on the session stats?

TBH, I rarely look at session stats.

But ability to configure for one of the following views would be useful:
1) Historical stats using Filter By # of Players
2) Last X hands stats
3) Session stats

[The Minder]

Would everyone agree it would be more useful to not have number of players filters on the session stats?
Considering that 'number of players' filters have no meaning with regards to tourney stats I'm not sure where you're going with this. Unless you're going to intrinsically link # of players to SnG/MTT size. In which case, why wouldn't you just define tourney size?

[Raventhon]

In my opinion, the most immediately useful additions would be:

1) Allow filtering of the Tourney / Reports tab in the same manner the Tourney / Results tab is filtered. The current system is completely unable to separate SNG hands from MTT hands, and as the functionality is apparently already there, this would be a fantastic addition. Databases containing even tens of thousands of SNGs can become extremely difficult to analyze when you have giant t1m+ swings from random MTTs mixed in with your 45-man SNGs. I'd also like to be able to analyze my MTT stats at all, which is currently impossible without this filter.

2) Improved results detection. I'm pretty sure this is going to be difficult to code, but HEM is currently not able to distinguish between $12 45s and $12 180s. The only way I've been able to keep them separate is through the use of Sharkscope & manual labeling, and it's frustrating.

3) Improved Tournament Grouping. I'm currently forced to use several filters to be able to analyze my data in a meaningful way: SNGs are stored as gametype LIM O8, MTTs are stored by gametype NL Omaha Hi, and tournaments I haven't yet processed are stored under NLH. It's necessary to do this in order to see accurate Results graphs. I feel like it's extremely helpful for analysis to see these types of things separated out. There should be filters for tournament types:

> HU
> 6-max 1-table
> 9-max 1-table
> 10-max 1-table
> 10-max 1-table DON
> 9-max 2-table (18man)
> 9-max 3-table (27man)
> 9-max 5-table (45man)
> 9-max 10-table (90man)
> 9-max 20-table (180man)
> 4-max Scheduled MTT
> 6-max Scheduled MTT
> 9-max Scheduled MTT
> 10-max Scheduled MTT (do these even exist?)

These filters should be able to be applied somewhere in the Filters so they can be applied to Results, Reports, and, eventually (hopefully) integrated into the HUD. (An option like "Show Same-Type Tourney Stats Only" would be incredible, returning only 6max MTT hands on players when you're seated with them in a 6max MTT and 9-max stats in 9-max would be excellent as well)

[Raventhon]

Would everyone agree it would be more useful to not have number of players filters on the session stats?

By "Session" do you mean "Results"? I use the # of players filter on a regular basis, but only because the Tables doesn't really give enough options. Also, it'd be a far more useful tool if Stars tournies had summaries embedded so that HEM could autograb # of players.

[Pupp3tMast3r]

Raven, I didn't think about importing all my SNGs as LO8 or MTTs as Omaha. That's a nice workaround :D

How do you do it automatically though? Or do you actually do it manually after each of your sessions?

[Raventhon]

Raven, I didn't think about importing all my SNGs as LO8 or MTTs as Omaha. That's a nice workaround :D

How do you do it automatically though? Or do you actually do it manually after each of your sessions?

I go back every few days and change the following:

45s => Size 45, Speed Turbo, Tables 2, Gametype LO8
180s => Size 180, Speed Turbo, Tables MTT, Gametype LO8
1-table MTT satties => Size 9, Speed whatev, Tables 1, Gametype NLO
MTTs => Size whatev, Speed whatev, Tables MTT, Gametype NLO.

It'd be tremendously helpful if I were able to edit multiple attributes simultaneously the way many id3-tag editors allow you to do for music, but this lets me get garphs i can display the way I want them.

The only reason I had to split up gametypes was that there weren't enough Tables flags to handle everything. If I had (1, 2, 3, 5, 20, MTT) for Tables options, I wouldn't need the Gametype.

[Raventhon]

Depends. I would consider the last 50 stats. In STTs (single table sngs) for example you might have a 5/5 rock which then all of a sudden as antes kick in moves towards a 30/20 stat. If we keep the session stats it would seem the guy is really tight when in fact he is opening a lot more pots while we're 6 handed (as opposed to 9.)

But in major MTTs it wouldn't be as big of a problem I think. I'm sure there's a way to add this as an option in HEM (for whoever wants it one way or another, right?)

This is actually being handled with the Effective Stack Size filter. It's only active in the replayer right now but it might actually make me use a HUD when I'm playing SNGs because it would have the information that matters. It doesn't help me to know that someone runs 16/13 over 45m SNG lifetime because those are pretty standard reggy stats. However, if I know you run 8/6 from a 20-80bb stack and 25/23 from <10bb I can make excellent assumptions about your ranges in each situation that I cannot with only the overall numbers.

[Northernwind]

Please make possibility to see winnings in big blinds in tourney-reports.

[cath555]

Do you guys have any estimate when this will be available in the HUD?

[The Minder]

Do you guys have any estimate when this will be available in the HUD?
I seem to remember a post that talked about 3rd/4th quarter this year but it's more likely that functionality will be released piecemeal. For some elements you might even not know it has been released (database restructuring for instance).

PT3 is also trying to improve tourney functionality so this is becoming an interesting race.

[cath555]

I seem to remember a post that talked about 3rd/4th quarter this year ...

...My feminine intuition says it will be here faster than that. ;)


PT3 is also trying to improve tourney functionality so this is becoming an interesting race.

I also have PT3, currently uninstalled. Have been playing around with both for a while. Once 1) they really implement the effective stack filter in the HUD, 2) the prog can recognize turbo and non-turbo, and rebuy/freezeout, and 3) I can add my custom stats to the HUD I will never look back. (I switched from PT3.) But of course I keep an eye on the PT3 guys, I am curious.;)

[The Minder]

...My feminine intuition says it will be here faster than that. ;)

Well, seeing as how we're in the 3rd quarter now I'll be shoving all my chips into the pot... you gonna call? :)


I also have PT3, currently uninstalled. Have been playing around with both for a while. Once 1) they really implement the effective stack filter in the HUD, 2) the prog can recognize turbo and non-turbo, and rebuy/freezeout, and 3) I can add my custom stats to the HUD I will never look back. (I switched from PT3.) But of course I keep an eye on the PT3 guys, I am curious.;)
I don't want to hijack the thread, but in most things HEM and PT3 are pretty close. I'm a tourney player so I don't need esoteric stats like 5bet_raise_on_Thursdays_sometimes_called, but I do need a HUD that doesn't loose Hero stats just because he/she changes table. The other thing I need is analysis of my play and the reports/filtering system in PT3 is years ahead of HEM.

[cath555]

Well, seeing as how we're in the 3rd quarter now I'll be shoving all my chips into the pot... you gonna call? :)

... I do need a HUD that doesn't loose Hero stats just because he/she changes table. The other thing I need is analysis of my play and the reports/filtering system in PT3 is years ahead of HEM.

Right! I guess I need to get some sleep, we indeed just started the 3rd quarter. :) (noon here and I haven't slept) Yes I will call :)

About loosing Hero's stats when changing table. AFAIK it's been an endless discussion. Honestly 1) I think I am (I should be) aware of my own image at a certain table, 2) when I am moved to a new table, I certainly (try to) adapt, so my stats from the previous table aren't necessarily relevant. Of course it would be nice to have an option to enable/disable resetting Hero stats when changing tables or something like that.

I have some comments on the effective stack filter though, perhaps after I've slept a bit.

[spanky]

Hi guys...is there any way you can create a feature/filter to find out my FT strike rate and more importantly for eg. how many FT's I convert to wins/top 3 finishes etc.

[The Minder]

Hi guys...is there any way you can create a feature/filter to find out my FT strike rate and more importantly for eg. how many FT's I convert to wins/top 3 finishes etc.
If HEM ever gets a decent report writer then your chances of fulfilling this request should/may increase markedly.

[Raventhon]

Well, seeing as how we're in the 3rd quarter now I'll be shoving all my chips into the pot... you gonna call? :)


I don't want to hijack the thread, but in most things HEM and PT3 are pretty close. I'm a tourney player so I don't need esoteric stats like 5bet_raise_on_Thursdays_sometimes_called, but I do need a HUD that doesn't loose Hero stats just because he/she changes table. The other thing I need is analysis of my play and the reports/filtering system in PT3 is years ahead of HEM.

Why on earth do you need a hud that doesn't lose hero stats at changing tables? You should have a general idea what you run. The only useful thing that I can think of is the ability to see your stats for a specific subset of hands. ie. you have 250 hands on some villain -- the ability to view hero stats over that particular 250 hands would be quite valuable as it's likely that those are the hands that particular villain has seen on you. Being able to see your statistical lifetime on any table is kinda useless.

[The Minder]

Cath is right, this has been gone over many times in the past... here's my take.


Why on earth do you need a hud that doesn't lose hero stats at changing tables?
Becasue I want to know how I'm going. HEM is great at telling me (with stats) how all the villains are performing at both a session and lifetime level, but I can't see anything on Hero. I want to know if I'm in front of the stats game or way behind because the dealer hates me and I'm not getting decent cards, or there's some hyper-aggressive vilains at the table and I can't get into the pot. If I lose my stats, I have no idea. Naturally enough, I also want the ability to 'reset' hero stats at the end of a rebuy session for instance.


You should have a general idea what you run.
wp Sir, you have hit the nail firmly on the head. HEM CANNOT (emphasis added) tell me what my stats are for VPIP/PFR/AF, so no, I have no general idea what I run. HEM can give me some numbers for these stats but they are not accurate. I play everything from STT to RA MTTs and HEM lumps all the data together.


The only useful thing that I can think of is the ability to see your stats for a specific subset of hands. ie. you have 250 hands on some villain -- the ability to view hero stats over that particular 250 hands would be quite valuable as it's likely that those are the hands that particular villain has seen on you.
Agreed, but expand your horizon and this requirement to at least the length of the tourney. :)


Being able to see your statistical lifetime on any table is kinda useless.
Ya think? I can think of two reasons right off the bat. The first is so I can do analysis between what I'm running, what I could be running, what I'd like to be running and what I should be running to avoid leaks. In other words, to make changes to my game plan on the fly. But I digress. The second is that in a tourney I don't want to see my lifetime stats but I do want to see my total stats for that current tourney. With a resetting HUD I can see how all the villain's are playing but I can't see how I'm playing.

This debate can rage forever and the arguments for both sides are valid for the proponents. I simply assert that this feature (a resetting HUD) came about more through bad planning rather than science. Make this functionality an option (reset or no reset being Hero's choice) and all discussion will quickly go away.

[cath555]

Becasue I want to know how I'm going. HEM is great at telling me (with stats) how all the villains are performing at both a session and lifetime level, but I can't see anything on Hero. I want to know if I'm in front of the stats game or way behind because the dealer hates me and I'm not getting decent cards, or there's some hyper-aggressive vilains at the table and I can't get into the pot. If I lose my stats, I have no idea. (...) HEM CANNOT (emphasis added) tell me what my stats are for VPIP/PFR/AF, so no, I have no general idea what I run. HEM can give me some numbers for these stats but they are not accurate. I play everything from STT to RA MTTs and HEM lumps all the data together.
(...) I simply assert that this feature (a resetting HUD) came about more through bad planning rather than science. Make this functionality an option (reset or no reset being Hero's choice) and all discussion will quickly go away.

I don't know how many tables you are playing (I play around 4-6). Up to six tables, I know quite well how active I've been at a certain table, how many times I entered a pot per orbit and how aggressive I was pre/postflop. I can imagine people having problems tracking 10+ tables though. And I know very well without stats in terms of numbers (again, up to 6 tables) "if I'm in front of the stats game or way behind because the dealer hates me and I'm not getting decent cards, or there's some hyper-aggressive villains at the table and I can't get into the pot". I don't need a HUD to know that.. And it all changes once you get moved to a new table! The hyper-aggro villain has gone, your session stats are not relevant anymore, new table, new life (new stats)...

A few more thoughts, and as always, I may be wrong (and I hope you get my broken English):
I often play the very same tourneys every day. It's the same 200+ people. There are many I meet daily. In the mid-late stages, I often find myself having hundreds of hands on someone at my table. Almost statistical data. Almost like cash games :) Then I can see someone having a VPIP of 8 over 600+ hands which is useful of course but if I really have 600+ hands played with that person this is something I should have noticed myself without a HUD anyway - that he is a nit. But it's just not the same for my own stats. There is no such thing as "my tendencies" or if I am "ahead" or "behind" at a certain table, compared to my own average lifetime stats, or what I would find to be the "ideal stats". I like to see myself as a dynamic person* who adapts to the table conditions. I sometimes enter every second pot for a few orbits, sometimes go card dead (and without spots I could take advantage of) for four orbits. These are all specific to the table and not the session or tourney. Once I am moved, everything may change. And I am def not willing to get any closer to my own "ideal stats" so I don't really need to know how much I am "ahead" or "behind". So what I am saying is that the collected lifetime stats (or hands from last X months or whatever you set it to) on my opponents can (conditionally!) help me in making decisions in borderline situations for most of my chips, but the same stats on me are irrelevant and say nothing about my own game and table image at a specific table. If anything, the table stats say something about my table image. There is no such thing as "tourney image" but table image. Which, in terms of numbers, is correctly reset once I am moved to a new table.
*Now of course one could argue that if I presume I am able to adapt to the specific table conditions, I should presume that my opponents are adapting too, so that their lifetime stats are also irrelevant. And this is why my HUD is very very transparent, almost invisible, and I play based on my actual observations and notes, not the HUD. But not every opponent is a thinking opponent, and for the non-thinking ones, generalizations I make based on the HUD suffice. Most of the time. ;)
And finally, I do everything I can to avoid being exploitable. Since we all know that several people use HUDs, I also know (presume at least) that to some extent, they will play me based on the stats they have on me. And I want to have them confused. So again I am not willing to adjust my game on the fly in a way that I get any closer to my long-term or desired stats in a certain session or tourney - to anything which is quantifiable. No-no. I want that if they play me based on the stats they have collected on me they are wrong because I am not stats. So again I don't need to know what I am running at a certain table compared to my average long-term stats (=what most likely they have on me), in terms of numbers. Rather: the higher the deviation is, the better for me..
All I need is my table stats and it's exactly what I am getting right now. Others may have different needs and it sounds reasonable that people want to be able to choose whether they want session/tourney stats for Hero or the actual table stats are enough for them.



"HEM can give me some numbers for these stats but they are not accurate. I play everything from STT to RA MTTs and HEM lumps all the data together."

This! This is the problem with HEM - for me. This is why I said that once they implement that the prog can recognize the tourney structure (fast/slow; rebuy/freezeout) it will be just perfect for me. Until then, you know what I do, and it's a pain in the ***, is that I only play a specific tourney type at the same time. I mean, if I want to play with the HEM running. One afternoon I only play rebuys, on another day, I only play freezeouts with a similar blind structure, and I have two (in fact, four..) databases! This is the only way I know of that I can avoid getting all those stats mixed up. When I play a turbo, a double shootout and two rebuys at the same time, plus two 45-man SNGs, I rather play without HEM because I don't want it to import the stats from all these very different games. Now if and when the HUD can be filtered based on effective stacks it will be a great step forward because it at least will solve that deepstacked and shortstacked stats don't mix up but it still doesn't consider how fast the blinds will go up (in 3 minutes or 20 minutes...). Once that's implemented too, I am perfectly satisfied. Perfectly. (It's so easy to make me happy, isn't it? ;) )

[Raventhon]

This! This is the problem with HEM - for me. This is why I said that once they implement that the prog can recognize the tourney structure (fast/slow; rebuy/freezeout) it will be just perfect for me. Until then, you know what I do, and it's a pain in the ***, is that I only play a specific tourney type at the same time. I mean, if I want to play with the HEM running. One afternoon I only play rebuys, on another day, I only play freezeouts with a similar blind structure, and I have two (in fact, four..) databases! This is the only way I know of that I can avoid getting all those stats mixed up. When I play a turbo, a double shootout and two rebuys at the same time, plus two 45-man SNGs, I rather play without HEM because I don't want it to import the stats from all these very different games. Now if and when the HUD can be filtered based on effective stacks it will be a great step forward because it at least will solve that deepstacked and shortstacked stats don't mix up but it still doesn't consider how fast the blinds will go up (in 3 minutes or 20 minutes...). Once that's implemented too, I am perfectly satisfied. Perfectly. (It's so easy to make me happy, isn't it? ;) )

The single best thing to fix this is to allow the Tourney / Reports window to be filtered in the same way that Tourney / Results is. Allow me to see a report on just tournaments I have classified as Turbo / 2 Tables, Super Turbo / MTT, or any of the filtering options that are already a part of the program and I'll be a happy, happy person.

[Raventhon]

I want to know if I'm in front of the stats game or way behind because the dealer hates me and I'm not getting decent cards, or there's some hyper-aggressive vilains at the table and I can't get into the pot. If I lose my stats, I have no idea.

What possible motivation could you have for wanting to know these things? "In front" of the stats game? This kind of talk, in my mind, reflects an attitude that is statistically incorrect. What is the value of knowing, for example, that you're running 25/23 in Tournament A over the 400+ hands you've played before you switch to an entirely new table with people you have 0 hands on? Will it affect your play to know that pure random chance has caused you to be dealt slightly better hands than on average over a tiny sample size?

It SHOULD NOT affect your game to know you're running 8/6 over the course of a tournament. How would you adapt to the knowledge that you're running 8/6 when your standard is 18/10? If the spots to enter the pot aren't there, they aren't there, and attempting to force correct your stats to some idealized lifetime "optimal" over the extremely short sample size of a single tournament will likely cause more leaks than it will prevent. If you know you're running 8/6, will you try opening / 3betting more in an attempt to make your stats look more like what you think a good reg's stats look like?

If there are hyper-aggressive villains at a table, that will be reflected by your table stats being tighter. The single greatest factor that affects my opening ranges (and, thus, my numbers) is the layout of the specific table at which I'm currently seated. It is less than useless to know my stats on an entirely different table that just happened to be in the same tournament.


wp Sir, you have hit the nail firmly on the head. HEM CANNOT (emphasis added) tell me what my stats are for VPIP/PFR/AF, so no, I have no general idea what I run.

You don't? I run 16/13 over 4m+ hands of turbo 45m sngs and I run anywhere between 12/10 (or some other ridiculously tight statline) and 26/22 at MTTs. There's huge variation in my MTT statline that is based entirely on table conditions. That being said, I'd love the ability to filter the Tourney/Reports tab in the same way as the Tourney/Results tab.


Agreed, but expand your horizon and this requirement to at least the length of the tourney.

I think you misunderstand me -- Say there's a villain at my table. I've played 50 hands at this table with him. I have a certain statline over those 50 hands at this specific table which I am easily able to see through default HEM performance. I've also played (and thus have data on this specific villain) 300 additional hands at some point in the past with this opponent. There is no way for me to figure out which part of my game he's been exposed to over those 300 additional hands.

What I'd really like is the ability to, say, right-click a specific opponent's stats and say "Show Hero Stats For This Sample". It'd then apply the Vs. Player filter from the Tourney / Reports tab and show me MY stats over that particular sample size. This would allow me to see the exact data that that specific opponent is using to make his decisions against me, which would obviously be fantastically useful.

One final question for you.

Why do you want to see stats for specific tournaments at tables where those stats may no longer be relevant? Hero stats at tables are, in my mind, used to figure out how the other players will react to you. By combining stats from many different tables where you may have played drastically different games, you lose information. This could cause you to react incorrectly to aggression. People are far more likely to 3bet you light if you're running 34/29 than they are if you're running 10/8. If your overall tournament numbers are 15/14 but you're running 34/29 at your current table, it's quite possible that you could react incorrectly to aggression against you. Are you using Hero stats as a self-monitoring device to figure out your own opening frequencies?

[cath555]

What I'd really like is the ability to, say, right-click a specific opponent's stats and say "Show Hero Stats For This Sample". It'd then apply the Vs. Player filter from the Tourney / Reports tab and show me MY stats over that particular sample size. This would allow me to see the exact data that that specific opponent is using to make his decisions against me, which would obviously be fantastically useful.


Yesss! A very good idea.

[The Minder]

Cath & Raven

This is a great discussion and highlights just how many ways there are to skin a poker cat. Please excuse me for not answering every point you guys raised, but I'd like to hit on a couple.

1. Yes, I do use hero stats to monitor my own performance. Not as a rigid system but as one of many tools. Hence my dissapointment when hero stats reset on a table move. I've also had the ridiculous situation where a table broke up only to reform with 7 of the original 9 players but of course hero stats reset.

2. If you only play one type of tourney, or a couple of types that are similar (say 27 man vs 45 man SnGs) then your stats are accurate in the HUD and reports/filters. If you bring any other tourney into the mix then your VPIP/PFR/AF stats become diluted but are still presented in the HUD in the same way. HEM offers no mechanism to segregate this data. An 18 man SnG is not played the same was as a RA MTT, or a DoN. That's a long was of explaining that HEM has no clue what my VPIP/PFR/AF for any of those game types. That's not the case if you only play a single type of tourney.

3. Specifically for Cath. You mentioned that you believe that there was no tourny image, just table image (I've paraphrased). I want to pound the table, shout, scream and debate this... but I'm still getting my head around the concept. Let's just leave it as 'glass half full, half empty' kind of thing.

Notwithsdtanding all the comments, I still feel that for a tourney a HUD has limited use, however the ability to perform post game analysis is critical to improving one's game. Unfortunately, HEM is still a long way from providing this tool.

[_Loki_]

there are not enough discussions of this type on the forum !

[Raventhon]

Minder: Point by point.

1. Why?
2. Been brought up previously. Best way to change is by allowing filtering of the T/Reports tab in the same way as the T/Results tab.
3. Cath's right. There's table image and then there's player-specific image. Everything else is basically irrelevant.

[The Minder]

Minder: Point by point.

1. Why?

I guess the simple reason is that once I defined what sort of player I was/am I could define ranges for statistics. If I'm playing within those ranges I feel a certain 'comfort'. If I'm outside those ranges I look for reasons why... perhaps the cards are falling for me and I've had AA 13 of the past 14 hands or perhaps the dealer did not appreciate my bribe of hookers and blow and has decided my max card will be a 9. Either way, hero stats are (for me) all about developing a comfort level with the game at hand.

I have no issue with other players using hero stats in entirely different ways.

I'll throw a quick comment at the table/tourney image thing. I might be looking at this the wrong way, but I see table image as a transient thing (here and now) and tourney image as longer term. Whilst the 'here and now' might go through some considerable statistical swings, longer term (ie tourney) view should remain relatively constant.

Take this as an example. We're in a tourney and Doyle Brunson comes to our table. We all know Doyle, he's pretty good with the pokerz. I'm also guessing we could put a descriptor on Doyle... TAG, LAG etc. We sit with Doyle for an hour and feel comfortable with his style. The table breaks up, we go on our merry way and 4 hours later we find ourself all back at the same table. Is Doyle going to play any differently? Are you (Hero) going to play any differently? The answers of course are 'perhaps'... it all depends on the cards/players and the moment. But (there's always a 'but') all of us will continue to pursue the prize the same way we did at the previous table and the previous tournament. There is a thread that remains constant for each tourney player and what happens at individual tables are nought but bumps in the road to that prize.

I think table image has a huge bearing in cash games and is developed at each table. I also believe that there is a tourney image that is far longer term, more stable and possibly more difficult to deal with.

@Loki. I agree, however this is a forum for people trying to resolve HEM issues. Poker strat, or even software strat, prolly belongs in other places... like 2 + 2, however I have never really liked that site.

[The Minder]

Minder: Point by point.

2. Been brought up previously. Best way to change is by allowing filtering of the T/Reports tab in the same way as the T/Results tab.
?? Both suck imo.

[Raventhon]

?? Both suck imo.

There is already functionality in the T/Results window to filter tournaments by # of tables. You could define all SNGs as 1-table, all MTSNGs as 2-table, and all MTTs as MTT, then filter the T/Reports tab in that manner.

Basically, there's already a way to view subsets of your tourney lifetime in the Results window, and filtering that way would allow you to see, for example, just your RAMTT stats or just your MTT results or just your MTSNG results.

Could it be improved? Sure, but at some point you have to examine coding time vs. the usefulness of the feature, and the changes I'm suggesting seem like a simple tweak.

[Raventhon]

I guess the simple reason is that once I defined what sort of player I was/am I could define ranges for statistics. If I'm playing within those ranges I feel a certain 'comfort'. If I'm outside those ranges I look for reasons why... perhaps the cards are falling for me and I've had AA 13 of the past 14 hands or perhaps the dealer did not appreciate my bribe of hookers and blow and has decided my max card will be a 9. Either way, hero stats are (for me) all about developing a comfort level with the game at hand.

I have no issue with other players using hero stats in entirely different ways.

I'll throw a quick comment at the table/tourney image thing. I might be looking at this the wrong way, but I see table image as a transient thing (here and now) and tourney image as longer term. Whilst the 'here and now' might go through some considerable statistical swings, longer term (ie tourney) view should remain relatively constant.

Take this as an example. We're in a tourney and Doyle Brunson comes to our table. We all know Doyle, he's pretty good with the pokerz. I'm also guessing we could put a descriptor on Doyle... TAG, LAG etc. We sit with Doyle for an hour and feel comfortable with his style. The table breaks up, we go on our merry way and 4 hours later we find ourself all back at the same table. Is Doyle going to play any differently? Are you (Hero) going to play any differently? The answers of course are 'perhaps'... it all depends on the cards/players and the moment. But (there's always a 'but') all of us will continue to pursue the prize the same way we did at the previous table and the previous tournament. There is a thread that remains constant for each tourney player and what happens at individual tables are nought but bumps in the road to that prize.

I think table image has a huge bearing in cash games and is developed at each table. I also believe that there is a tourney image that is far longer term, more stable and possibly more difficult to deal with.

@Loki. I agree, however this is a forum for people trying to resolve HEM issues. Poker strat, or even software strat, prolly belongs in other places... like 2 + 2, however I have never really liked that site.

I find myself completely disagreeing with this entire approach to poker, honestly. My tournament strategy is defined by a) the players at my table and how they're likely to react when I do things, b) my stack size and the stack sizes of the other players at the table, because this affects the plays I have available in my arsenal and the mindset of the other players, and c) my cards.

The most important thing is figuring out the absolute max the other players will allow me to get away with, and in that sense, the hero stats by table are quite relevant. It seems to me that you have a 'target' set of stats that you're trying to hit -- if you're currently running tighter than this 'ideal' statline, you'll attempt to widen your stats by opening more. If you're running wider, you'll adapt by folding more. This is almost exactly the opposite of how I feel the game should be approached.

If I'm running tight, there's usually a reason for it -- aggro / good opponents to my left who play back annoyingly often, an unfavorable stack distribution, or some other factor has led me to tighten up. Current table circumstances are not favorable for opening or playing pots, for whatever reason. An attempt to adjust to seeing my statline "too tight" would lead me to open or raise in circumstances that I've already figured out are not profitable. This sort of Hero-stat based short-term adjusting is, honestly, not going to help your game. Conversely, if I'm running on the wide end of my stat distro, it's likely because the table conditions are quite good for opening and 3betting. To adjust to a table in this condition by tightening up to return my stats to some imagined ideal would be to leave money on the table that I could (and SHOULD) be picking up.

Tourney image is also practically useless because your stack is always changing. A player is going to play completely differently when they're sitting there with 200bb at the start of a tournament, 20bb on the bubble, or 45bb as the chip lead deep in the money.

Honestly, I'm not sure what you even mean by the phrase "tourney image" -- there is no overarching tournament, there's just a series of situations at a series of tables.

Finally, yes, 4 hours deeper in to a live tournament I would expect myself to be playing a game that is a good bit separated from 200bb play at the start of a tournament.

[The Minder]

There is already functionality in the T/Results window to filter tournaments by # of tables. You could define all SNGs as 1-table, all MTSNGs as 2-table, and all MTTs as MTT, then filter the T/Reports tab in that manner.

I would find that option way too course. However, even as a temp fix it would be totally screwed by rebuy tournies.

[The Minder]

Raven... I take it you would be classed as LAG?

Btw... I have made many comments itt about playing tournies with the HUD turned off. That would tend to suggest I'm not playing to a set of stats... would it not?

[_Loki_]

@Loki. I agree, however this is a forum for people trying to resolve HEM issues. Poker strat, or even software strat, prolly belongs in other places... like 2 + 2, however I have never really liked that site.

thankyou

My reasons...
can't guarantee that that HM developers play tournaments or visit 2+2...
plus like you I'm not comfortable at 2+2 - variable level of intercourse :)

[Jedi]

Im breaking my cherry...
This thread is interesting..I agree with The Minder on most of the points
he has put forth for updates.I got 300k tourney hands from every variant
9max 18max MTT hyper Turbo heads up SNG and tourney.And freerolls. Having
freeroll info mixed in with $200 buy in could cause some very conflicting info.
Was trying to find filter for when i lost my entire stack.This i feel is very important.And bubble situations if could filter by bubble.Or customisable
bubble/inflection points it could help me develop tournament pecific stratergies for play with various stack sizes against players with various stacks and HUD info.
As a further point filtering by tourney M. In a game type as in number of players in the tourney could be good.As could see how playing with different stacks affects my play.And how various player types and stack sizes play against me.
Sorry if i dont make my points very clear it is my 1st post..
:)
Looking forward to future updates..The Hud software has already paid for itself..:D

[The Minder]

Hey Jedi,

Welcome to the forum and don't worry about your writing skills... I for one understood you perfectly. It's also great to have another tourney player join the mix. I appreciate that you're happy with HEM, but I would be doing you a disservice if I didn't recommend you also try the PT3 free trial. You'll see that both products have much to offer and come at many common problems from differing perspectives.

The other great thing atm is that PT3 and HEM appear to be in a race to release tourney specific functionality. As customers, we have much to gain from this.

[The Minder]

just a wee bump... for shits and giggles

[Raventhon]

proper mtt support took so long that i switched to cash...
...
.......

[The Minder]

proper mtt support took so long that i switched to cash...
...
.......

And that, said the actress to the bishop, is that.

But I'm glad the Ongame mucked cards issue seems to be resolved tho... that was really worrying me.

[gp18089]

Ok guys. This thread opened before 8 months!!! In the meantime nothing happened and most of the things we asked for are not so difficult. I am wondering why you opened this thread. I feel very disappointed and embarrassed.

[The Minder]

I bump the thread just so people can see where HM priorities are.

[jogden139]

I bump the thread just so people can see where HM priorities are.

where are the HEM priorities? clearly nowhere near the tourney functionality

[The Minder]

where are the HEM priorities? clearly nowhere near the tourney functionality
6 max cash... end of story.

[pcallinallin]

6 max cash... end of story.

Really END of story? Should I participate here or not?

[The Minder]

Really END of story? Should I participate here or not?

your call.

Me, I'm the eternal optimist. Besides, I paid my money for this prog.

[pcallinallin]

your call.

Me, I'm the eternal optimist. Besides, I paid my money for this prog.

I was just sending a zinger to whoever not following up for us. I am here to help with suggestions and feedback etc. I play a ton of MTTs so I won't be going anywhere. I played for the past few years without a DB program and recently purchased HEM.

So now that we have some active players can we get some active programmers to help us make progress on HEMs usefulness to loldonkamenters?

[jogden139]

I bet you all the tourney players just switched to pokertracker or other programs. I guess HEM would rather make sure the botters on all x000 of the shitty random crap sites have hud's

[B-Money]

I originally made this thread to open the door so a constructive conversation can take place. If I knew it would turn into this I never would've done it and more than likely the following wouldn't have been developed.

We added BB filtering. Some love it, others say it's worthless.
We added report filtering by buyin, speed, number of players, etc. Some love it, others say it's worthless.


I do what I can to help you guys out but get zero thanks in return. It's disheartening to say the least. Everyone thinks their bug or their feature request is the most important thing in the world. I can sympathize with that on some level, but the constant bashing and comments about our priorities not being focused is extremely unfair.

[pcallinallin]

I originally made this thread to open the door so a constructive conversation can take place. If I knew it would turn into this I never would've done it and more than likely the following wouldn't have been developed.

We added BB filtering. Some love it, others say it's worthless.
We added report filtering by buyin, speed, number of players, etc. Some love it, others say it's worthless.


I do what I can to help you guys out but get zero thanks in return. It's disheartening to say the least. Everyone thinks their bug or their feature request is the most important thing in the world. I can sympathize with that on some level, but the constant bashing and comments about our priorities not being focused is extremely unfair.

Bmoney,

I sincerely apologize for being an unappreciative smartass. :o

Thank you for creating this thread and for the improvements you all have made for tournament players. I hope to be a part of continued improvements to HEM for all games and players.

Taking shots at people who work hard is just too easy, working with the same people to make gradual improvements is much more effective. I will correct my tone and hope to keep this thread a productive part of the forum.

[Colin252]

I originally made this thread to open the door so a constructive conversation can take place. If I knew it would turn into this I never would've done it and more than likely the following wouldn't have been developed.

We added BB filtering. Some love it, others say it's worthless.
We added report filtering by buyin, speed, number of players, etc. Some love it, others say it's worthless.


I do what I can to help you guys out but get zero thanks in return. It's disheartening to say the least. Everyone thinks their bug or their feature request is the most important thing in the world. I can sympathize with that on some level, but the constant bashing and comments about our priorities not being focused is extremely unfair.

The bb filters are very useful to sng players like myself for sure. The Vpip/pfr popup is crucial. If it were more flexible or could be edited like a normal popup that would be even more amazing wink wink.

I think because on the whole the support here at HEM is 1st rate people come to expect insane service, and then complain if their every whim isn't catered for.

Keep up the good work, all the people who complain can't hate your work that much otherwise they'd just use pt3...

[The Minder]

I originally made this thread to open the door so a constructive conversation can take place. If I knew it would turn into this I never would've done it and more than likely the following wouldn't have been developed.

We added BB filtering. Some love it, others say it's worthless.
We added report filtering by buyin, speed, number of players, etc. Some love it, others say it's worthless.


I do what I can to help you guys out but get zero thanks in return. It's disheartening to say the least. Everyone thinks their bug or their feature request is the most important thing in the world. I can sympathize with that on some level, but the constant bashing and comments about our priorities not being focused is extremely unfair.

I take umbrage at this.

The frustrations expressed in the thread are a direct result of an inability by RVG to support tourney players within HM... it's as simple as that. I'm a regular reader of this forum over ALL aspects and even blind Freddie can see that if someone has a cash game problem, there's a good chance it will be built/fixed because the db schema supports cash games. Tourney players are not so supported. Therefore, comments and frustrations from posters should not be taken as a personal affront. However, you are one of the 'front men' for HM and with that comes a requirement for a toughened hide. I'm not telling you anything new so far.

Here's the new bit. The people in the back room at RVG are not listening. How do I know this? Try these:
The original methodology for reading Rush hands was, in hindsight, flawed. However, RVG just wouldn't admit defeat and move on until the user backlash gained biblical proportions and nothing else was getting done because too much manpower was allocated to this element. RVG (not you) lost some serious cred over this. The Visions people say they can't really help tourney players until the db schema is modified. The LeakBuster folks say they can't really help tourney players until the db schema is modified. SnGWiz was brought into the fold but has, for all intents and purposes, died. And nobody from RVG asked the tourney players where their priorities lay. We told you what we think is needed, some were big ticket items some were not, and we're big enough to work out what we think is a priority list. Instead, RVG brought in some functionality that fits within the current db schema! The same schema that doesn't tell tourney players what they need to know.
I won't even mention all the things Roy said he'll do for tourney players and has yet to deliver item 1. Damn, I went and mentioned it anyway.

I'll make a deal with you. I'll send Roy my db and he sends me his. I'll tell him what his VPIP/PFR/AF is for a range of cash games and he tells me what my VPIP/PFR/AF is for a range of tournies.

B-Money, I happen to think you're a nice guy who tries really hard not only to do his job for RVG but also to help the customers. But, it appears to me that no one in support or RVG is prepared to say to us "umm, you ain't getting that". So everyone who has any sort of a request or ax to grind gets a non-negative response from you guys and are therefore encouraged to whine until something gets done. Do I fit that category? For God's sake, tell the marketing guys to go screw themselves and be up front with your customers.

And you can start by being up front with me. By the end of this year, 2010, will the HM db be able to differentiate the majority of tourney types. Yes or no?

[herosista]

well i agree with The Minder post.

I want to add one more think.

If there is so huge problem with database schema why Hm team dont create second db schema ONLY for tournament data.

A few pros of this

1. No more - ,, we can't do this with this database"
2. Speed up -- if some play cash and tournaments
3. Allow support for Vision and LeakBuster aplication -- more clients in tournaments players

And one more point

~6 months and Sng WIzard Still dont have ability to show hud. Pathetic

[fi$hN$hip$]

" * I won't even mention all the things Roy said he'll do for tourney players and has yet to deliver item 1. Damn, I went and mentioned it anyway. "

I was told HEM would be adding TOurney Manager to HEM Pro when I bought it and LEak Buster, TS etc. None of them support Tourney's. I paid to be a beta tester basically it seems. Today 3 years later HEM can not track the MTT's or SnG's I play still!? And for the 3rd time this year it appears I will have to wipe and install again :(

[pcallinallin]

tl:dr

Man, when I bought this program I choose it OVER the others.

I like it. I have confiedence that the guys who made it can deliver what we need here.

Maybe we can help them out here rahter than berate them for all our unmet expectations. It sounds like a workdesk type situation would be helpful for the programmers.

I motion that Minder, Myself and anyone else who would like to be involved compile the requests and needs of tourney players. I think meeting in a skype setting or a 24 hour window of high activity here to prioritize the needs, then a summary of prioritized items for improvement.

If we can create this list with everyones input, we can then work with mods / admins etc to guestimate how much time each will take to complete. Finally present a list that lays out very clear goals like this:

Ver. 1.11.6:
A.) Schema for Tournaments
i.) xxxxxx Specific detail of new schema
ii.) Criteria 2
iii.) Criteria 3

B.) Create seperate categories for Rush, Rebuy, KO, tournaments so we can look at each type sepeartly

Ver. 1.11.7:
A.) Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
B.) xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

etc etc etc


Now honestly I think you guys know way more than I do, and obviously have been on the merry go round here for a while, or at least thats what you sound like.

I would be willing to lead this orgainization of needs and help make it more manageable for the programmers etc.*

The basic premis here is stop bitching and ask the question, "What can I do to help you help me?"

Thoughts?

PC



* If I bust and cannot continue playing full time and have to get a job IRL I would relinquish this to another leader in the group.

[B-Money]

Appreciate the effort Pcallinallin.

When the thread was first started we started making a fairly comprehensive list of all things tournament related. This was then talked about internally about what could be done. We've carved out more development time for tournaments because of this so that is a positive step in the right direction for tourney players.

The latest thing talked about, and what is probably next on the feature list, is adding checks between blind levels so we can automatically detect tournament speed. Seems reasonable to add another check that if a 10 person tournament ends when 5th player is KO'd, that would be a DON. Rebuys, that's a beast unless the rebuy info is in HH or summary files.

Tournament stuff is more difficult to develop for than cash. Because of the database scheme that everyone talks about? Maybe a little, but the bigger problem is tournaments have a ton of variations that are not included in the HH files or summaries so we have to hack this information in there. I personally look at tournament development taking 75% more resources than cash and 25% of all poker players play tournaments. That's about as straight up as I can be about tourney development and one reason why I think some tourney players feel left in the dark.

The past week and a half I've been playing 6-8 Rush tourneys every day with a debug build to get short handed and to hopefully final table so we can close the book on Rush tourneys. That's 2+ hours of my day I'm dedicating right now to tournaments along with a full time programmer adding changes based on the video I'm making with debug information.

We'll continue tournament development no matter what and we do value everyone's feedback.

-B

[pcallinallin]

I dont want to question how you do your job B, so please dont take this in that way.


Do you have a list or kind of a strategic plan like I mentioned above? Something that we can look forward to each release and obviously be a goal of your programmers for each release?

One think I know about business, having the plan keeps you on track. The only other thing I know about business, things never go according to plan. Really I think we would all like to help make your job easier as it has benefit to us as well.

By the way, How much time did you guys spend defending yourself in threads where people tried to call you out? No really. I bet this doesn't help at all!

So let us know what we can do to help organize and streamline, plan and set goals... I hope this perspective will help show the futile nature of busting the balls of the people you need work from.

PC

[B-Money]

PC,

Making development tasks public along with bug logs has been requested a few times. Short answer is no. Why? We're in a very competitive market and making that stuff public will tip off the competition, the other reason is it will generate more "I don't see my issue on there" or "This issue has been on there for a year and it's still not done" or "Jeeze, look how many open bugs you guys have. I thought this is production software." This combined with we're always bumping new feature development because of site update bugs it's near impossible to stay on track unless sites stop updating their software. Huge cat and mouse game we play here where most software development has a stationary target. Ours is constantly changing.

Join the team and you'll have unrestricted access to this confidential material. :-) We're also looking for more C# Programmers currently.

I don't know of any software companies that have their development an open book like this. I try to release what I can and I do a little behind the scenes talk on the blog, but for the most part saying nothing is better than promising something, then delivering it late or not at all. Anyone who works in software can relate to that. Set the bar low, then when you exceed it people are happy. Set the bar high and just meet it, then people are meh, ok.

We were called out that we're not tourney players a while back. I reluctantly put my screen names out there so people can see we do play tourneys. Ahh, here's a little insider info I can let out. A few weeks ago we had a big conference call with well respected tourney players and tourney coaches that use HM. Their insight was incredible and they talked about things that nobody talked about in this thread. Without going into a bunch of detail they helped us with better ways to analyze tournament play depending on what state the tournament is in along with a few other gems. Very informative and productive call.

GL,
-B

[The Minder]

@ -B

I might come across as a selfish, antagonistic old fart, but... never mind.

Believe it or not, I am here to help and agree with a lot of what PC said in a previous post.

Now here's my $0.02c worth and this applies ONLY to tourney play. Focus only on Full Tilt and Pokerstars and let all the smaller sites drown. They don't run sufficient numbers, or sufficiently large tournies to justify the development expense.

Mate, you mention that it appears more difficult to develop HM for tournies than it does for cash. I really have doubts about this and I believe that within RVG the tourney solution is being looked at with a 'cash' mentality; you'll go blind doing that. You're well aware of the KISS principle, this is sooo appropriate for tournies. We don't need all those cash stats, hell we hardly need any stats at all.

A quick comment about cash/tourney percentages. As at this moment, PokerScout shows:

Pokerstars... 183892 players online... 28,485 cash players
Full Tilt ... 92948 players online... 18,674 cash players

Even allowing for 'play chip' players, those numbers don't appear to support a 75/25 cash/tourny mix.

I've dedicated this entire year trying to figure out how useful HM and its competitors are for tourney players. I've played with and without HUDs, I've played everything from 2 player HU to 50,000 player MTTs, I tested them all to see how they can analyze my game and help me improve. I also have 20 years in the IT business with coding and db experience. If anyone wants my help, feel free to ask. Just treat me like an adult.

[pcallinallin]

Yeah, im just a info lovin hippie, I walked out of my dream job with CBS in 2007 and now have this utopian view on how things SHOULD be in a perfect world.

Well in the spirit of the Art of War, can we make this a disinformation thread? lol jk.

Well I cannot wait to see what comes next.

PC

[CarolinaK1d]

I would love to have an effective BB stat for when antes kick in. I know anyone who plays SNGs (STT or MTT) would really appreciate this as well.

[The Minder]

I would love to have an effective BB stat for when antes kick in. I know anyone who plays SNGs (STT or MTT) would really appreciate this as well.
You already have a thread requesting this.

[CarolinaK1d]

You already have a thread requesting this.

I know, but this thread is obviously getting a lot more attention. Doesn't hurt to cross-post.

[The Minder]

I know, but this thread is obviously getting a lot more attention. Doesn't hurt to cross-post.
It's getting attention because we're trying to get some fundamental changes to HM, not some additional stats of dubious worth.

[CarolinaK1d]

It's getting attention because we're trying to get some fundamental changes to HM, not some additional stats of dubious worth.

You've obviously never played any SNGs if you think an effective bb stat is worthless. It's easily the single most important stat once the antes kick in.

[MassaTheChamp]

We added BB filtering. Some love it, others say it's worthless.

This is a really cool feature, i have so clearer picture when dealing with shoving ranges for regs. Thanx for this!

It would be nice to be able to switch the filter on or off with double click or something though.
And 15-20 bb's should be able to set separately. For 14 bb's stack i should be able to set it min 12 max 16 for instance, but 16 isn't available only 15-20.
At lest till 22 blinds would be nice to be able to set up the min max this way.
Filtering by M would be greath though too ,)

[The Minder]

So, as we enter the final month of 2010 with a thread that started in February 2010 (but had a genesis way b4 that), we can review what has been achieved.

Any comments from HM support or developers on the way ahead?

[B-Money]

So, as we enter the final month of 2010 with a thread that started in February 2010 (but had a genesis way b4 that), we can review what has been achieved.

Any comments from HM support or developers on the way ahead?

We do have some exciting things in the works. Unfortunately our business is competitive and we can't publicly talk about our road-map. When sites update we tend to chase new bugs quite a bit. Sometimes this sidetracks current development.

When we have some big newsworthy features close to completion I'll be sure to add a news article and publicly talk about it in the forums.

-B

[The Minder]

Thank you. Despite assurances some functionality would be brought in by the end of this year, I really didn't expect anything.

Please close this thread.

[sashasharpley]

Whatever happened to your tourney development? I contributed lots of feedback to what would be useful when this thread was started (must be almost a year ago now) and yet virtually nothing has happened in the meantime. This is very disappointing.

I do not understand why tourney functionality is treated this way. Please advise me as to when or indeed whether this there will updates.

I need to know this because, if you are not intending on developing this further, at least I can start looking around for other software that will meet my needs.

Thank you.

[skobotinc1]

Whatever happened to your tourney development? I contributed lots of feedback to what would be useful when this thread was started (must be almost a year ago now) and yet virtually nothing has happened in the meantime. This is very disappointing.

I do not understand why tourney functionality is treated this way. Please advise me as to when or indeed whether this there will updates.

I need to know this because, if you are not intending on developing this further, at least I can start looking around for other software that will meet my needs.

Thank you.

+1

[pelerin]

+1

[dubberman27]

+1

[B-Money]

A few suggestions were implemented. I wanted to get more of them in as well but free development time quickly dried up. Off the top of my head, below was added last year.


Added Tournament Blind Filtering for HUD
Added Tournament Specific Filters to Main Filters


We do want to get more tournament features added and we're working in this direction. The feedback in this thread has been invaluable and won't go unnoticed. As soon as I have a firm date for a new tournament feature being released I'll be sure to talk about it in the Blog and try to mention it here.

Thanks,
-B

[sashasharpley]

Yes that is true. However, there must have been dozens of suggestions. I had assumed that this was just the start and that there would be new additions often.