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Ajax
02-03-2010, 01:47 AM
Filter 3 indicates that I have to do some major work. I think that I am bluffing with too many of these hands. Could you give some recommendations on this filter for the stats CB_Flop, CB_Turn, CB_River, Agg%, Agg%_Flop, Agg%_Turn, and Agg%_River?

Leak Buster Support
02-04-2010, 04:51 PM
Yes, I'm looking into this for you. Don't have any of this information off hand.

Wietse
03-21-2010, 02:19 AM
Did you get a chance to look into this?

Also you guys made a mistake in the video of the filter. Near the and the presenter says that one should look if you call the turn and then fold the river too much. You can't ever have folded running the Showdown= true filter

Wietse
03-21-2010, 06:55 AM
are you guys making your assumptions on results of datamined hands?

In that case you will mostly get hands that were truly shown. Mucked hands aren't in included in this filter.
Thus could it be that your assumptions are based on biased results towars hands that won the showdown. thus making the video belonging to this filter wrong?

Leak Buster Support
03-21-2010, 03:21 PM
Did you get a chance to look into this?

Also you guys made a mistake in the video of the filter. Near the and the presenter says that one should look if you call the turn and then fold the river too much. You can't ever have folded running the Showdown= true filter

No, we will run some numbers on stats from some of the filters after the limit and Omaha versions are complete.

I think this comment was supposed to be in comparison to filter 2, which is the same filter w/o showdown. I don't think that was 100% clear though.

As far as datamined hands, the stats are still the same because you don't need hole cards for the statistical information. How often someone bet the turn isn't dependent on whether we know their hole cards are not.

Wietse
03-22-2010, 05:03 AM
I think this comment was supposed to be in comparison to filter 2, which is the same filter w/o showdown. I don't think that was 100% clear though.


I dont want to be uber nitty but mean filter 4 I assume ;-)

As far as datamined hands, the stats are still the same because you don't need hole cards for the statistical information. How often someone bet the turn isn't dependent on whether we know their hole cards are not.

Just to be clear filter 3 = tpgk or worse by turn+ seen showdown.
It has nothing to do with what action on the turn.

I agree with you that it should not matter if the cards are known or unknown however filter 3 also filters out al the unknown hands. For example:


I have a pretty large database with a couple of million hands with some datamined hands.
Lets look at player x

no filter
samplesize = 172333 hands

Filter : saw showdown=true
samplesize= 5002 hands
unkown hole cards= 26%

Filter: filter 3 tpgk or worse by turn+ seen showdown
sample size= 974 hands
unkown hole cards= 0%

Thus if the information you used to make the video is based on datamined hands then advise you are giving is wrong.

edit: or am i being stupid right now

Wietse
03-22-2010, 05:25 AM
Does anyone show a profit running this filter over a descent samplesize?

Leak Buster Support
03-22-2010, 03:21 PM
Just to be clear filter 3 = tpgk or worse by turn+ seen showdown.
It has nothing to do with what action on the turn.



Not being stupid of course. It's a good question.

The point of the filter isn't to just isolate how you're playing the turn, it's trying to have you examine and understand when you get to the turn with top pair and good kicker, and you actually take that hand to showdown, whether you're making money with this. The primary point is that it's a very close happy medium. If you're doing this too often, you may be taking too many weak hands that you should have folder earlier (usually on the flop). At the same time, you want to make sure you are learning how to control the pot so that you can make profit with these hands. How you're using your position will also factor into the profitability of this filter. So if you're in general using and playing well in position, you should be getting these hands to showdown a fair amount of time, and making max value with them.

I hope that helps, but if you have other questions fire away. I think in the up coming workshop, that you guys will learn a lot about the filters.

Wietse
03-22-2010, 04:11 PM
oops it seems i messed up quoting. srrry

I think I do understand the point of this filter.
I am loosing my ass of in this filter and I am worried by this.


But I think you dont understand my question and the point I am trying to make. Maybe that is my fault. I'll try to eleborate.

When I run this filter, there will be a lot of airhands included. Holdem manager knows all of my holecards so all of them will be included.

When I run this filter on another player in my database it will include a lot of hands where I was not in the hand. Because of this the wholecards of this player will often be unkown. This is because when a player loses his hand and he mucks his hand the holecards are often not being shown in a datamined hand history. This will be almost all of his airhands.
In the example in my previous post player x had 26% unkown holecards. That is a lot. All if these hands are uncounted for in filter 3.

So when I am comparing my results with that of player x the comparison is not fair.

Only when you include the unkown holecards of player x the comparison is fair.

My question: When you made the video did you come to your conclusion my running these filter on players using datamined hands?

If so, your conclusion is biased towards hands that were won. Because these hands will not be mucked therefor these whole cards are known and are included in filter 3. The losing hands will be mucked and are therfore unkown wholcards and are excluded in filter 3.

I am afraid that what you are saying is a leak might nog be a leak at all.

MASTERHOLMES
03-22-2010, 04:56 PM
instead of calling down too much, bet folding the river.

I believe the video man met that you are check calling, or are you bet calling the river.
if you bet and call a raise with marginal hands that can be quite a leak especially if you arent' getting proper pot odds, example
you bet for value and get reraised all in, the pot odds are atrocious but we call because we mistakenly think we are commited, or that he is bluffing.

another reason to look further at this hand is this filter also includes or worse.
example i got pocket nines and so I didn't have top pair top kicker,, i had worse and we check it down,, and on the river he check back to me having made a better with a jack probaly preparing to call a bet but i check behind.
so the mistake probaly wasnt' betting to represent a king on the board as I raised utg but also by using my position on the small blind and checking behind I only lost the bare min.

looking at another hand where i lost a big pot with pocket threes, I raised 3 times in the cut off and was called by queen six suited.
the flop came 654 giving me an straight draw open ended so the flop brought an ace, he bet all in with his second pair of sixes and I called on the turn with my straight draw greatly reduced. I was 23 percent but i figured i had more outs then that so I called all in.
a flop/turn leak leading to a show down where i saw the river.

you can also edit the filter further by including for example pfr=true for hands where you raised preflop as opposed to hands where you didnt' raise preflop, or for hands where you had position vs where you didn't have position to see if your used your position or over played your position.

..
i ran the filter on my friend who has 1200 hands and the filter 3 only brought up 5 hands so no airhands here for me.

MASTERHOLMES
03-22-2010, 05:08 PM
My question: When you made the video did you come to your conclusion my running these filter on players using datamined hands?

If so, your conclusion is biased towards hands that were won. Because these hands will not be mucked therefor these whole cards are known and are included in filter 3. The losing hands will be mucked and are therfore unkown wholcards and are excluded in filter 3.

I am afraid that what you are saying is a leak might nog be a leak at all.

"Leak Buster is the process of tens of millions of hands being analyzed and median ranges constructed for peak win rates. These Hand Histories were not submitted, they were farmed directly from the poker sites. A model was constructed from that of how these ranges relate and effect each other. Next a scoring algorithm was built from this model which ranks the data and how far it is from that peak mean, and a score from 1-10 is given for each statistical category based on the severity of the leak. "

I think that means they didn't datamine from their hold them manager database like you are worried about. :).
so when looking at hands they filtered for this, they came up with good statistic leak in between tag and lag for balance.

Wietse
03-22-2010, 05:21 PM
thx for the advice. I will start playing around a bit with the filter.

Regarding bet calling en check calling filter 19 filters on this. It only doesnt filter on hand value.

But I was kinda hoping you could answer my question wether the results used for making the video are biased or not.

It actually doesn't really matter to me if the video is right or wrong, but what I would like to know if I REALLY should be showing a profit running this filter.

Wietse
03-22-2010, 05:27 PM
ohh i didn't see your 2nd post at first.

So I could be right about this. That the advise given in the video is based on wrong information.

Leak Buster Support
03-22-2010, 05:48 PM
When I run this filter, there will be a lot of airhands included. Holdem manager knows all of my holecards so all of them will be included. The data for filters though is used from sites with known hole cards though if that helps.

When I run this filter on another player in my database it will include a lot of hands where I was not in the hand. Because of this the wholecards of this player will often be unkown. This is because when a player loses his hand and he mucks his hand the holecards are often not being shown in a datamined hand history. This will be almost all of his airhands.
In the example in my previous post player x had 26% unkown holecards. That is a lot. All if these hands are uncounted for in filter 3.



My question: When you made the video did you come to your conclusion my running these filter on players using datamined hands?

If so, your conclusion is biased towards hands that were won. Because these hands will not be mucked therefor these whole cards are known and are included in filter 3. The losing hands will be mucked and are therfore unkown wholcards and are excluded in filter 3.

I am afraid that what you are saying is a leak might nog be a leak at all.

Knowing a players hole cards doesn't influence whether they went to showdown or not. Some sites won't show cards, but most will if it's gone to showdown.

If you're losing money with that filter, it's a leak. There are likely several decisions on many streets you'll want to evaluate starting all the way from pre-flop. For example, if you are too loose, and playing too many hands that will make a lot of second best hands, you'll make TPGK, and if you take too many of those to showdown, you will lose most of the time.

I would suggest posting up some of the biggest losing hands you have with that filter and start analyzing (and having others) give you feedback about those hands. There usually will be a common theme that will arise.

Leak Buster Support
03-22-2010, 05:53 PM
Not sure why it's not letting me edit, but I wanted to make clear that filter information is primarily used on sites with known hole cards. We also consult with winning players about information from the filters, as well as how to construct the filters for finding specific leaks.

I'd also add that from my personal play over a large sample size (and this is mainly mid-stakes), I have winning numbers with that filter.

MASTERHOLMES
03-22-2010, 05:53 PM
ok going back to filter 3.
I think besides looking at the hands it helps to look at the stats overall at least if not in position.
just briefly looking my own stats here,,

my pfr is 78, but my flop and turn bet is only 19 percent so that means that i am too passive probaly allowing the suck out on the turn and the river.
also my positional awareness is only 1 with this filter meaning that I don't use position.
I do well in all preflop action except where i am the opener which indicates probaly that i am too lag when not opened before me ?
note that my cbet being so low ,, that i am giving away money opening up the hand preflop and not following through with a cbet.

furthermore looking at my main losses the worse was opening up with medium pairs,and following through to the river, in detailed hand grouping.

so the filter here can really get detailed if you look at your own stats as to some weakness in patterns.
note I have some videos on data analyzing at stox site, so that helps me look deeper, i bet especially if i compare to leakbuster stats to optimize filter 3 to a winning position.

Wietse
03-22-2010, 06:21 PM
Not sure why it's not letting me edit, but I wanted to make clear that filter information is primarily used on sites with known hole cards. We also consult with winning players about information from the filters, as well as how to construct the filters for finding specific leaks.

I'd also add that from my personal play over a large sample size (and this is mainly mid-stakes), I have winning numbers with that filter.

Thx that puts my mind at ease.



ok going back to filter 3.
I think besides looking at the hands it helps to look at the stats overall at least if not in position.
just briefly looking my own stats here,,

my pfr is 78, but my flop and turn bet is only 19 percent so that means that i am too passive probaly allowing the suck out on the turn and the river.
also my positional awareness is only 1 with this filter meaning that I don't use position.
I do well in all preflop action except where i am the opener which indicates probaly that i am too lag when not opened before me ?
note that my cbet being so low ,, that i am giving away money opening up the hand preflop and not following through with a cbet.

furthermore looking at my main losses the worse was opening up with medium pairs,and following through to the river, in detailed hand grouping.

so the filter here can really get detailed if you look at your own stats as to some weakness in patterns.
note I have some videos on data analyzing at stox site, so that helps me look deeper, i bet especially if i compare to leakbuster stats to optimize filter 3 to a winning position.


I have lost 20k on this filter in the past 15 months.(glump) Considering I am breaking even I must do i whole lot of good things on other spots :D

I am going to get into my details right away.
What video's @ stox are you refering too?

Would you be interested in joining my studygroup? You would be the first.

MASTERHOLMES
03-25-2010, 10:52 PM
stoxpoker is merging fully with cardrunners on may first.

but if you are already a member of stoxpoker ,, watch split suit drill down preflop videos 1 and 2.
then using the stats recomendations for six max no limit on leakbuster (the range ) you realize if you are below or above it.

then you dont try to pigien hole yourself into the stat,, i know I tried that back when it tried poker tracker 3 before i got hold them manager.

instead for example one of my main leaks on step 2 is cbet, so i went to position tab in step 3, and look in advanced last night and clicked on each red area (pretty cool imo) and got the advice.
so pretty my major leak is raising preflop and not following through with a cbet. (then i read the cbet module and probaly will rewatch the cbet video).

but I am holding back from playing fully no limit as i am waiting for omaha leakbuster.

Wietse
03-26-2010, 04:05 AM
thanks

I am gonna watch those vids.

I didn't really get into step 3 yet. The advanced stuff really do look cool though

Leif
03-28-2010, 04:18 PM
I am loosing a ton here too.

I also counts the times when you get AI on the flop with a strong draw and get called, and have less than TPGK on turn (very often).

Part of why you are raise a flop raiser with these hands are your fold equity, and when that is high, the only hands that get in this filter is when you are called, here opp often has
1) overpair = often smallish favorite
2) set = always big favorite.


So by playing these hands right vs the right type of players (FE wise), og will get a pretty big negative result for those hands, right ?

Thereby scewing the overall meaning by looking at the stat.

I think it should sort out "when allin on flop".

I am loosing big in this filter (winning player), and the many of the loosing hands are fully correct played strong draw vs players where i have high FE, and they happen to have a set, and off course call.

MASTERHOLMES
03-28-2010, 04:26 PM
all you have to do is go to edit,, and go to the flop for more filters

"all in on flop=true"

then you can delete that filter and look at "all in on turn=true"

Leif
03-28-2010, 05:52 PM
Thanks, didn't think about that.

I went to "more filters" and added "Allin on flop = false", id actually didn't change much, still a very big loser, both in filter 3 and 19.

I take my words back :)


I'll guess i have some work to do on my game :)

Wietse
04-18-2010, 01:22 PM
hey leif

Did you manage to improve on this part of your game?