View Full Version : Advice on filter TPGK or worse+showdown

01-05-2010, 02:42 AM

I'm not sure if this is the place to seek advice or if this is just a tech support forum O_O

When I run the filter TPGK or worse + showdown I get a wildly different result from what is said to be expected in the related video:

What's going on? Is this a filter problem or is there an explanation for this (seemingly) enormous leak?

The hand sample for nl100 is ~150k hands with a 2.5PTBB/100 winrate

Leak Buster Support
01-05-2010, 06:01 AM
Without actually seeing your hands, this is usually a sign of a few things:

First - yes, it's a leak for you (and a fairly significant one), and it's something you need to really focus on.

A) You are likely opening too many mediocre hands that make weak top pair, and how you get to showdown is an issue. note: we will have a new step 4 that should help you analyze this better.

B) You seem to be playing these pretty passively. So you're putting yourself in a lot of situations where you are checking and guessing at showdown, which isn't ideal what you want to do. Of course there are some situations you'll want to exploit someone's over aggressiveness and call down lighter, but if it's systemic it can be a significant leak.

So I'd recommend taking a look and seeing how wide you are opening from certain positions. Cutting down on some of the weaker sides of your ranges, and when you do play these hands, try and have the initiative, or play them a little more aggressively. Post some of the hands from this filter, and also study them yourself. Are you picking the right opponents to call down against? Should you have even been in this hand to begin with?

Hope this gets you moving in the right direction.

01-05-2010, 02:05 PM
thanks for the reply!

What is the best way to post hands here?

I'm studying this very carefully and I have found some confusing stuff :confused:

First off, I adjusted my sample for my last 35k hands at nl100 and the result is hopefully a good sign
http://www.liquidpoker.net/user_pictures/27852.last50khandsTPGKorworse+showdownJan5th2010.j pg

river call efficiency 1.77

Anyway, I noticed that my river agg% is very low (13% or w/e) with this filter, but I look at my losing hands in this section and a majority of them are failed river bluffs. It looks like I'm picking some crap spots, here are two examples:
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt (http://www.flopturnriver.com/reviews/Online-Poker-FullTilt.php#converter) Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com)

saw flop

BB ($387.90)
UTG ($93.25)
MP ($301.70)
Button ($198.10)
Hero (SB) ($224.45)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/diamond.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/heart.gif
1 fold, MP bets $3, 1 fold, Hero calls $2.50, 1 fold

Flop: ($8) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/club.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/club.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $5, Hero calls $5

Turn: ($18) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $13, Hero raises to $39, MP calls $26

River: ($96) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $75, MP calls $75

Total pot: $246 | Rake: $3

I don't remember the hand well, but here I chose to turn my hand into a bluff on the turn/rvr vs an aggressive reg opponent. If I expect him to be valuebetting strong J's, QQ, turned K's, and betting bluffs, what do you think of this? My thoughts in retrospect are that the turn raise is fine, but the river bet is bad once he calls the turn raise (since he no longer has bluffs in his range on the rvr and its unlikely he is going to bet/c - fold a jack or QQ on the river).

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt (http://www.flopturnriver.com/reviews/Online-Poker-FullTilt.php#converter) Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com)

saw flop

BB ($205.35)
UTG ($216.05)
MP ($218.40)
Hero (CO) ($222.25)
Button ($502.90)
SB ($220.35)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/heart.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/club.gif
2 folds, Hero bets $3, Button calls $3, 1 fold, BB calls $2

Flop: ($9.50) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/heart.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $8, 1 fold, BB raises to $24, Hero calls $16

Turn: ($57.50) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/spade.gif (2 players)
BB bets $36, Hero calls $36

River: ($129.50) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/club.gif (2 players)
BB bets $48, Hero calls $48

Total pot: $225.50 | Rake: $3

This is sort of indicative of a spot I sometimes feel awkward about. Holding 2nd pair or similarly marginal hand vs an opponent who is an aggressive regular with 43% raise cbet, running at 23/19/10% 3b, aggrofreq 52%, FCB 29% over 255 hands.

Thanks for any assistance!

Leak Buster Support
01-05-2010, 05:23 PM
Well, your recent stats look much better of course. This is much more in align with how you want to play these situations, and it's a drastic shift from the first stat list you posted up. Did something change for you recently?

I was suggesting you post hands on either your favorite message board, or you can put up hands in the leak buster forum on PZ (the button that you click in LB). There's support staff and long term winning players on there that can provide feedback about hands and leak buster. We don't want to turn this forum into a strategy forum. Just a place for LB support.

With hand #1, you have a hand that has showdown value against an aggressive regular. Most regs are going to double that turn of course, and it also polarizes their range on the river unless they are a very aggressive value bettor / river bluffer (which won't likely be the case at these stakes). So C/Ring and turning your hand into a bluff isn't ideal here imho. When you have a hand that has decent showdown value out of position, you want to not bloat the pot, and try to get to showdown fairly cheaply.

If you check / call turn your opponents value range is fairly slim. If he has a flush draw, he should know that it discounts that you'll have a flush draw + most regulars won't be C / Cing a flush draw, so a bluff with a missed draw is -EV. If he turned QT, it's still a very similar situations for him because you've check / called now 2 streets. Your line looks very much like a strong J or strong mid pair. If you're calling the turn, he should know you're going to call most rivers in that spot. Doesn't mean he won't bluff sometimes, but again, most of his bets will be for value.

If you lead the turn it's a similar situation. You just need to know how much your opponent would play back at your here, because the K on the turn does open up some situations for a good regular to exploit that. But, the line still has merit against a lot of players.

The worst imho is C/Ring and essentially turning your hand into a bluff. You're out of position, so now if you're called, you're going to put yourself into a weird spot on the river.

As played, once you C/R, you should look to C/F the river because you're not getting enough hands to fold out.

Hand #2, I'd fold the flop unless you have some specific read. The primary reason is that most players don't tend to C/R bluff in multi-way pots too often. When he C/R's you are heads up, but you still had to bet into multi people on this board, so the C/R should give you some kind of credit (and his CR is small - which usually indicates value too).

With him just overcalling pre-flop, you wouldn't expect his range to be that strong, but it could easily be KT/KQ/22. Even though you have position, this is a spot you shouldn't be getting to the river with.

Hope that helps.

01-06-2010, 02:07 PM
thanks for the indepth thoughts! I will bring further talk to the PZ forums, I overlooked them

Leak Buster Support
01-06-2010, 08:11 PM
You're welcome. Good luck and continued success with your poker game.