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Rvg72
07-14-2008, 10:49 PM
Calling a Flop CBet Raise and not going to Showdown

Next we should be ensuring that the hands we called a flop raise with and didnít get to showdown with arenít just a case of calling to see a turn with a draw or weak hand and if there are some hands in there where we made a bad call, now is the time to realize this and realize it is a big leak. Go back to the Edit Filter section and double click on the "Saw Showdown = True" on the left hand column and then go back to the right hand column near the bottom and select "Saw Showdown = False" and also select "Won Hand = False" to remove hands you won on the Turn or River. Obviously this entire result will be losing hands. What you really want to do here is look at the Total Hands and you should also be replaying all of these hands (especially those in the Top Pair Weak Kicker or Worse with a weak / no draw) to determine why you chose this line since generally speaking, calling a Flop CBet Raise with marginal hands you don't intend on showing down is a very big leak.

If you only review one part of this section then id recommend this is it. Every Hand in here should be scrutinized heavily to see if you could have folded to the flop raise. Letís say we have 10 hands in here, if we correctly folded to the raise in the case where we didnít have a strong hand then we should have only lost 950bb/100. Remember any call in here by a draw or weak hand is basically burning money and youíll probably see a minimum of an extra 1,700bb/100 lost per hand when you call the raise and fold on further streets. Thatís an average of 17bb per hand. You should have folded the flop with your weak hands and lost 950bb/100 instead of the min of 2650bb/100 you probably lost when making an incorrect call with a weak hand. Iím sure that would look a lot better in your bankroll than in some donkís bankroll so the next time youíre faced with a raise on the flop with a weak hand as yourself do you like money and if your answer is yes then fold.

Calling a Flop CBet Raise and going to Showdown with TPGK or worse

Now load the filter "Called Flop CBet Raise with less than TPTK" and then go in and Edit the Filter and set "Saw Showdown = True" and scrutinize these results. Generally there should be fewer hands in here than there is in the similar category ďCalled a flop raise with TPTKĒ which weíll come to soon because we really shouldnít be getting here too often with a weak hand and TPGK or worse is a weak hand when facing a raise. You can mess around with the Flop Hand Value in the filters section and gradually decrease the value of your hands to see how many hands youíve called with weaker hands like Middle Pair or Bottom Pair etc. The weaker the hand the less hands you should have.

Occasionally we will be playing a maniac and TPGK will be good enough or we might have a combo draw plus pair type hand but you should again scrutinize the hands here in detail using the Hands TAB especially the bigger pots and donít try to rationalise a call because you really need a good reason to be calling a raise with this type of hand versus a decent player. Another occasion where you might find a call is versus an aggressive TAG that habitually raises flush draw flops with draws, sometimes I like to call and push on his turn bet if I have position and the flush doesnít hit but like I said you need a good logical reason for any hand you find under this filter. Again if your reasons are logical you will be at least breakeven here or positive and if not then you definitely need to scrutinize your hands.

Calling a Flop CBet Raise and not going to Showdown with TPGK or worse

Now go back and edit the filter and remove "Saw Showdown = True" and replace with "Saw Showdown = False". You should not have many hands listed here and each should have a good reason when you replay them to justify this line otherwise it is likely that you found yourself a costly leak.

Calling a Flop CBet Raise with Top Pair Top Kicker

Now load the filter "Called Flop CBet Raise with TPTK" and see your results. You might be surprised at how poorly top pair top kicker does against a typical CBet Raise. If we have a negative return here were probably overvaluing TP and not giving the villainís raise enough credit or more to the point probably not giving passive villains enough credit because when passive villains raise TPTK usually isnít enough so we need to be having a minimum of 2 pair or better in this case. So in summary we should be showing a profit when we occasionally call a raise with TPTK and the best way to do this is to obey the Fuzz rule and not call a raise with a draw or weak hand unless weíve strong notes or reads to suggest otherwise. This doesnít mean always fold TPTK to a raise on the flop. Say weíve TPTK against a very aggro TAG and get raised on a drawy board, if were confident heís range is heavily weighted towards draws we might decide to call in position and push on heís turn bet if no draws come in or we might 3bet him on the flop but we just need to be careful were choosing the right times and villains to make a stand with TPTK as its another hand thatís overvalued too often. Bare in mind this is in a raised pot, not a limped or 3bet pot where the dynamics are quite different so in most cases when someone raises the flop they will have strong hands in the scenario where they were the preflop raiser with hands like sets, 2 pairs, Overpairs etc and TPTK just isnít usually strong enough to call a raise.


Calling a Flop CBet Raise with an Overpair

Now load the filter "Called Flop CBet Raise with Overpair" and see your results. This should be quite a bit better although you might have thought before reading this article that overpairs were generally safe against a CBet raise. When we get raised in this scenario we should play overpairs more conservatively than we would in 3bet pots because you need to be asking yourself what you beat when a solid villain raises you. Consider his range, your image, board texture and donít be afraid to fold overpairs if you think youíre beaten. If a TAG has called in the blinds we can rule out other overpairs a lot so if heís raising you on a 359 rainbow board heís range is heavily weighted towards sets and unless we have reads or notes to suggest otherwise our overpair is probably not good and we should be folding a lot. Of course against some bad opponents were never folding overpairs because they have a huge range for calling in the BB and theyíll raise and stack off with a wide range such as TP or smaller overpairís so again villain and situationally dependant but if you donít have a very positive return here you have a serious leak and need to review all your big pots in the Hands TAB.


That draws this article to an end. For a lot of people this information will be extremely valuable and I encourage everyone to explore this further. Try evaluating Turn CBet Raises the same way by tweaking the filters. Replay all of your suspect hands looking for better ways to play this spot and of course check out the regulars and see what a raise from them on the flop really means.

Copyright RVG Software Ltd

john2
07-18-2008, 10:35 PM
I may be misunderstanding the filter and the situation, but when I load the filter, "Called Flop CBet Raise with Overpair", I get no results.

However, I edit the filter and remove the condition, "Flop Bet Call = TRUE", and I get many results. Of course, most of these are only spots where I cbet the overpair and no raise occurs, but I thought that it was funny that in NO instances was I raised when I cbetted an overpair.

I ran across this hand after editing the filter:


$25.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, June 18, 02:58:23 ET 2008
Table Tokio II (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Seat 2: ( $46.15 USD )
Seat 3: villain ( $7.35 USD )
Seat 4: ( $33.75 USD )
Seat 5: ( $51.70 USD )
Seat 6: jkr1 ( $25.00 USD )
posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
hero posts big blind [$0.25 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to hero [ As Ah ]
folds
villain calls [$0.25 USD]
folds
calls [$0.15 USD]
hero raises [$1.00 USD]
villain calls [$1.00 USD]
folds
** Dealing Flop ** [ Tc, 5h, 6s ]
hero bets [$2.50 USD]
villain raises [$5.00 USD]
hero raises [$5.00 USD]
villain calls [$1.10 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ts ]
** Dealing River ** [ Jh ]
hero shows [As, Ah ]
villain shows [7h, Td ]
villain wins $14.25 USD from main pot
hero wins $1.40 USD from main pot


I could probably find a couple more, too, but it takes too much time.

P.S. All I can say about this "Leak Finder" series is...WWWWWOOOOOOWWWW!

Rvg72
07-19-2008, 01:16 AM
I may be misunderstanding the filter and the situation, but when I load the filter, "Called Flop CBet Raise with Overpair", I get no results.

However, I edit the filter and remove the condition, "Flop Bet Call = TRUE", and I get many results. Of course, most of these are only spots where I cbet the overpair and no raise occurs, but I thought that it was funny that in NO instances was I raised when I cbetted an overpair.

I ran across this hand after editing the filter:


$25.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, June 18, 02:58:23 ET 2008
Table Tokio II (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Seat 2: ( $46.15 USD )
Seat 3: villain ( $7.35 USD )
Seat 4: ( $33.75 USD )
Seat 5: ( $51.70 USD )
Seat 6: jkr1 ( $25.00 USD )
posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
hero posts big blind [$0.25 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to hero [ As Ah ]
folds
villain calls [$0.25 USD]
folds
calls [$0.15 USD]
hero raises [$1.00 USD]
villain calls [$1.00 USD]
folds
** Dealing Flop ** [ Tc, 5h, 6s ]
hero bets [$2.50 USD]
villain raises [$5.00 USD]
hero raises [$5.00 USD]
villain calls [$1.10 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ts ]
** Dealing River ** [ Jh ]
hero shows [As, Ah ]
villain shows [7h, Td ]
villain wins $14.25 USD from main pot
hero wins $1.40 USD from main pot


I could probably find a couple more, too, but it takes too much time.

P.S. All I can say about this "Leak Finder" series is...WWWWWOOOOOOWWWW!

Hi John, It may be because your default play when having your cbet raised with an overpair is to reraise since the filter only counted the times you were raised and called. Try Adding Flop Bet Raise = True and I would suspect you would see a bunch of hands.

Roy

john2
07-19-2008, 08:26 PM
Sweet, I didn't exactly understand what the filter I deleted meant, but now it makes sense. My sample size thus far is fairly small, so yes, I'm sure I did reraise in all instances.

Thanks!

Barthold
07-06-2009, 03:50 AM
OK i'm a noob here. I think that TPTK means "two pair top kicker" how about TPGK ?Two pair ... Kicker ? :o

Edit: Found it, TPGK means Two pair good kicker.

So "good" means < A i guess

fozzy71
07-06-2009, 07:51 AM
It means 'Top Pair, Top/Good Kicker'.

http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Number=5988672

http://www.twoplustwo.com/acronyms.php