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30slou
01-24-2012, 08:39 PM
The whole saga is on Wikipedia under "New Coke".

In a nutshell, they came out with a new coke. People preferred coke the way it was. So the came out with coke classic. Then eventually they got rid of the new coke.

I let some time go by before I started using HM2.

(1) It imports hands *really* fast (from HM1 archived hands).

(2) It works fine for me.

But the deal breaker is performance. There is a noticeable drop 15 tabling.

At the moment, I hope HM classic will not go away.

hundenapf@gmail.com
01-25-2012, 06:51 AM
Exactly same thing for me, I tried all the tips their support guys gave on this forum and on 2p2 but HM2 just plainly sucks for me performance wise and after many painful sessions of trying to make it work somehow I went back to HM1. Especially HUD and Replayer are infinitely smoother and the whole package feels so much snappier for me (in addition to some obvious bugs and missing features in HM2). This basic performance is what really counts during everyday use for me.

30slou
01-25-2012, 09:51 AM
Well if the new product does not work as well as the old one out of the box on the same computer this should be made very clear.

Or there should be an option to run a bare bones version that is as fast as HM1. As you say the performance during actual playing is what counts.

Patvs
01-25-2012, 10:13 AM
Compare it to Windows XP--> Vista--> Windows 7


HoldemManager 1 = XP
XP needed Service Pack 1, 2 and 3 and 10 years to EVOLVE into a great OS.


HoldemManager 2 = Vista or Windows 7 (debatable)
In retrospect Vista, which everybody HATED, wasn't actually that bad. With the Vista Service Pack 1, + turning off User Account Control, it was as good as Windows 7.
Windows 7 has higher system requirements than XP. But if you have a fast computer, XP's performance will be capped; it can't fully utilize the speed/RAM/etc. whereas Windows 7 can.

hundenapf@gmail.com
01-25-2012, 10:45 AM
I use a current model Intel Quadcore CPU, 8GB RAM, 64bit Windows 7 and I use dedicated SSD harddrives for Postgres. Though it may not be the absolute top of the line I still consider my system rather on the higher end. And please do not tell me I need an even more "higher end" system for my Poker setup.

And yet the performance of HM2 sucks profoundly on this system, especially the HUD during life play with freeze frames of half a second to a second, lags in reports and the very tilting sluggishness of the Replayer

I like your Windows analogy but HM2 is far from Windows 7 in its current incarnation, it is Vista Beta at best. Going by that I am looking forward to your first couple of service packs!

30slou
01-25-2012, 12:35 PM
Patvs analogy is good. So continuing with it, XP extended support ends Apr 2014, according to microsoft's website.
XP was last sold on June 2008. So it was supported 6 years after the last sale date.

I have HM1 obv, I looked for a bit but couldn't find when HM1 will no longer be supported. If HM1 is supported (but no longer sold) as per the XP model for about 4 years after the last sale date this seems reasonable.

I basically need HM1 to do my job. I have no doubt HM2 in time will be superior but in the intervening time, what is the time frame for continuing HM1 support?

Patvs
01-25-2012, 05:47 PM
Going by that I am looking forward to your first couple of service packs!

There already is a big difference between the HM2 beta version 1001 and the current 6112.
Every number in the build number is an actual bug that's fixed. So there have been six thousand plus bug reports and feature requests cleared.

I'm currently running 6180. The new public build will have about one hundred of new fixes, features improved/added.
The biggest change has been around the build 5800+ mark, where HM2 split the program being able to use multiple threads. (one for program code, one for HUD/apps).
An actual "service pack" which is the big 2.01 release is already being worked on as well. (it includes a re-design of the graphs, and improved replayer)

If you're currently having performance issues, -as a temporary solution- read:
http://forums.holdemmanager.com/manager-general/11194-top-10-hem-performance-increase-tips.html and http://hm2faq.holdemmanager.com/questions/1501/What+can+be+done+if+HUD+is+lagging%3F

Patvs
01-25-2012, 05:54 PM
HM1 will get full support for at least a year (hand importing updates, HUD updates, etc.), just no new features will be added to HM1.

In the next 2-3 months, HM2 will surely 'catch up' and be as good as 1.12.09 is now. (and superior in the long run)
So there are two issues:
-1 Users that upgraded from HM1--> to HM2 and are afraid their HM1 license will expire in 6 months. It won't. If HM2 hasn't 'won you over' by then, we will not disable the HM1 license and you will be able to continue to use HM1.
-2 Users that think they shouldn't have updated and 'wasted' $$ since HM2 (still) has nothing to offer them over HM1. This simply really isn't true. HM2 already has a lot to offer just by the street-by-street HUD and vsHERO HUD alone. If you -understandably- prefer the HM1 look -for example of the graphs- this will be addressed in HM2.01.

30slou
01-25-2012, 06:05 PM
Sounds good - will wait for HM 2.01

hundenapf@gmail.com
01-25-2012, 07:53 PM
In the next 2-3 months, HM2 will surely 'catch up' and be as good as 1.12.09 is now. (and superior in the long run)

Very interesting, this is the first time I actually see a HEM official implicitly admit that HM2 in its current state is inferior to HM1, is expected to catch up in about 2-3 months and will only be superior "in the long run". That is at least a concrete time frame and an honest, solid statement instead of the usual marketing mumbo jumbo your colleagues tend to offer when the topic comes up.

Thanks for being upright about it! As a paying customer for years now who purchased full licenses for all versions and nearly all the additional apps – and who was very happy with your products until the release of HM2 I have to add – I would have appreciated getting this information beforehand instead of being abused as a beta tester over a period of many months.

morny
01-25-2012, 10:00 PM
Hi,

Can you email hm2support@holdemmanager.com and ask for a teamviewer session with Morny, there is no way it should be unusable on a high spec machine like that. We have made a bunch of performance improvements lately but this is an ongoing process, we still have some really big performance improvements planned but they are more focused on the actual app rather than performance issues while playing which are more related to the HUD.

Im happy to show you me 15 tabling on my crap laptop with 2gb of ram and a 1.6gh processor with HM2 without any lag issues and thats on ipoker which does have its own CPU usage issues, the only problems i have is keeping up with the action. There may be still more performance issues we missed specific to certain PC configurations, it may be several things so i would be happy to work with you in narrowing this down whenever you have the time and please refer to this thread. This offer is open to anyone with performance issues.

Playing live without performance issues is probably the most important function of a tracker so this will get top priority if we can narrow it down, it sounds like more than just you have this issue but the forums/emails would be crammed with threads on this if it was widespread so we need the help of the people still experiencing these issues so we can reproduce and fix it.

FWIW its not unsual to see a couple of performance issues daily with HM1 giving the size of the user base, because we had years to track down any performance bugs 99% of those are due to specific things like badly setup import loops, 3rd party programs, PC issues etc, your issue may be a combination of both HM2 and your PC configuration but hard to speculate at this stage, what i can tell you is as soon as we track this down you can be sure it will be fixed asap i.e days or weeks depending on the complexity of the fix and certainly not months.

hundenapf@gmail.com
01-26-2012, 06:42 AM
For 2 reasons not. Firstly I do not have HM2 installed for you to work with now because I went back to HM1 completely after I had lots of additional trouble with Notecaddy recently (http://forums.holdemmanager.com/notecaddy/171401-created-take-notes-whole-database-after-restarting-hm2-7.html). Thanks to HM2 my SSD drive was completely full after it repeatedly processed hands for days. When I was made aware that I could run Notecaddy in standalone with HM1 I deleted HM2 and its database to be able to use my precious SSD space again.

I gave this software 3 very extensive tries over the last 2 months and did things for hours if not days you guys requested from me on these forums and on 2p2 (turn UAC off, add exceptions in firewall, running as admin, reinstall .net, reinstall drivers, reinstall postgres in different versions, database tweaking, turning logs off, changing different settings, installing about a dozen of HM2 internal versions, etc). I have no plan on looking at HM2 again until this Windows type Service Pack comes out Patvs mentioned earlier.

Secondly I do not care at all about your company's way of turning your paying customers into unpaid beta testers to help you iron out major bugs and flaws. This software is expensive enough as it is so that you can not expect me to work with you on it to make it run in the first place after having shilled out about 200 Dollars or more. To me this practice of constantly asking end customers for logs and Teamviewer sessions just feels intrusive and abusive.

I will reiterate and emphasize this fact whenever I get the chance to because people seem to get all too used to the idea to first paying a company and then working for them without pay on the product they bought. This is just an insult to milk your customers twice this way. If you want to continue down that road you should make the entire HM2 thing open source and then many people will be happy to work with you on all the aspects and parts of it. It should of course be completely free then. You could probably charge for the additional apps as "plugins". But the way you involve your "customers" in the development and bug fixing process now there is no way they should have to pay anything for the HM2 core, much rather the other way around.

Make it either free and open source or get it to work yourself completely with all features in place and bugs gone before taking money for it. It just feels like this so much already, like something on Sourceforge with all the trouble tickets and "internal builds" and "milestones" with the only exception that you charge a lot of money for it.

30slou
01-26-2012, 08:53 AM
I agree with hundenapf@gmail.com. I was however saved from becoming an unpaid beta tester by the Table Scanner debacle for HM2 and clearly HM2 was made for sale way too early.

A year seems way for short for continuing support for HM1 and revoking HM1 licenses to people who paid for them because they got a discount on an inferior product is unacceptable. This appears to be a theme in how customers are treated.

I see the ad for a Mac developer. You should really allocate more resources to supporting HM1 for more than a year.

30slou
01-26-2012, 02:43 PM
Is there we can just pay you then money we "saved" on the HM2 upgrade to continue using HM1 forever?

30slou
01-26-2012, 02:57 PM
Morny,

Naive question for you. You sat the play time perf issues are HUD related for HM2. Now HM1 HUD works just fine.
Cant you just port the HM1 HUD so it can read the HM2 database and offer it as an APP?

I am happy to pay a buy in or so for this plus if this Band Aid works some people who are on the fence may using HM2 with a fast hud.

Probably not so simple though.

hundenapf@gmail.com
01-26-2012, 03:09 PM
Interesting that you say that, I would accept that option as well because just today I have decided to also just use HM1 as long is it supported but not to give HM2 a try again in the future. After reading that HEM employees themselves currently consider HM1 an inferior product even themselves and considering that together with their corporate habit of exploiting paying customers as beta testers I have just completely lost faith in this company. To me they have gambled away their credibility with this release and after HM1 is stopped being supported I will try one of these very promising new purely web based Cloud solutions or maybe even PT4.

I contacted the sales team just now asking for some kind of compensation/refund for HM2 as it is clearly not in any working condition for me. What they have effectively done is sell me hot air and asking me to help them basically finish their product and make it work myself after I gave them my money. I have gone through this once before in December and was really hoping the product was fixed now after having been contacted about a performance improving update, which actually did not fix performance adequately but also introduced severe new bugs, specifically with Notecaddy effectively wrecking my SSD Postgres harddrive. I am not willing to invest any more time and money into this in the future just to discover I have been misled again. The audacity behind this corporate conduct is incredible.

30slou
01-26-2012, 04:46 PM
hundenapf@gmail.com, I can understand your frustration. And while it very tempting to try other things, lets face it,
we are using HM1 because it is the best product.

If you have completely lost faith that HM2 will be just as good in 6 months, you are justified but I have not. Like you
I have no interest in becoming an unpaid tester - but none of us have to be - we have HM1. The company is probably deeply invested in ensuring HM2 is a success despite a disastrous start.

The main thing is not to have our HM1 licenses revoked and to keep the pressure up to maintain HM1.

That said, a port of the HM1 HUD would still be great as we could access HM2 stats and keep the good performance.

sreticentv
01-26-2012, 05:26 PM
Notecaddy effectively wrecking my SSD Postgres harddrive.

holy crap I rue the day you ever heard of NoteCaddy. I'm sorry there was a problem and extra disk space got used but do you need to post this on every forum?

Did you ever delete the postgres log files?

Please PM me the email address you used to buy NoteCaddy and I will personally make sure you get a refund for it. I try my best for everything to be perfect but sometimes I am imperfect and like I said I am truly sorry. But having somebody trash the **** out of me all over the place when it happens is too damaging for it to be worth it.

hundenapf@gmail.com
01-26-2012, 06:02 PM
Sreti I am not having a problem with you or Notecaddy and this problem was just one of very many problems I had with the HM2 package since my initial purchase 2 months ago. Actually Notecaddy was the main reason I tried so hard to make it work for me again and again and I keep emphasizing to others (for example on the German Poker community forums where I report about my HM2 experiences – you are free to interpret me being a German citizen as fulfilling the cliche of a pedantic, humorless perfectionist) that Notecaddy is about the single best thing about HM2 in the first place. As I told you in the other thread the logs were no issue, there were about 200mb of logs and I disabled and deleted them. The problem was somewhere in the HM2 database which filled the SSD up after days of Notecaddy running through hands.

What I do have a serious problem with however is the general corporate conduct I have experienced first hand since this HM2 purchase. This is what I keep pounding on in the various community forums and I will continue doing so on other forums, blogs and Podcasts because this issue of misguided efficiency capitalism at the cost of end consumers is dear to my heart and all I can do about it is try to heighten awareness of this problem with the goal of trying to nudge software companies to either make their product open source if they want collaboration (Linux style) or to make it work well before they take money for it (Apple Mac style). But selling something that does not work well (Microsoft style, thanks Patvs for the Vista analogy) is plain bad. I try to sensitize people to the fact that they – as paying customers – are being abused as beta testers for a prematurely released software instead of being delivered a working product. It entails the cutting of work places and makes for bad product releases. It allows for new flaws creeping in with "updates" such as with the Notecaddy incident. And then again end users are asked to put time and effort in to work them out. If the product only had a couple of flaws and some features were missing nobody would care, but just look at this list of issues, bugs, trouble tickets even now after my second purchase, months later and it is in no way better working.

Ever heard the phrase "the customer is king"? As an end customer I do not want to deal with milestones, internal versions, trouble tickets and such. Contrary to my nature I tried to show goodwill for a couple of weeks now and did the whole routine with the internal versions, bug reporting and patience. It didn't work for me, the product still sucks (for me) so I am back to my maxime that when I buy something I expect it to work and if it doesn't it means trouble for the vendor or the manufacturer which easily enough in the case of HM2 is the same company.

Patvs
01-27-2012, 01:34 AM
Make it either free and open source



@hundenapf@gmail.com:
There are varies payment structures:
-1. gillette system (give the razor away for nearly free, ask rediculously high prices for the razor blades, printers and toner/cartridges use this system)
-2. ask a monthly/yearly subscription fee (i.e. Norton Antivirus, PokerOffice experimented with this system)
-3. the most common system: you pay once. You can use it 'forever', but at some point the company will release a new/improved version for which you'll have to pay again: Adobe Photoshop, Microsoft Windows, HoldemManager etc.




I don't want to be an unpaid beta-tester / milking customers twice


You were already an unpaid beta-tester for HM1. Every HoldemManager user is: they report a bug, we fix it.
Of course we can find and fix some bugs ourselves, but we don't have 10.000 programmers/alpha-testers (like Microsoft does) and we can't play on every pokerskin and every type of game, so unfortunately we rely on players to report bugs.

You don't have to upgrade to HM2. We're not forcing you.... (yet). Just continue to use HM1. It will be supported for another year.
Video: why you should upgrade: http://www.holdemmanager.com/Downloads/HM2-12-Reasons-Introduction-3.wmv


Is there we can just pay you then money we "saved" on the HM2 upgrade to continue using HM1 forever?

This is an interesting question. Since we don't make it clear that using the 'discount' will result in an expiring HM1 license. Whereas if you buy HM2 for the full price, your HM1 license won't expire. (but HM1 will stop getting updates in about a year, so it it basically results to the same thing)

Patvs
01-27-2012, 01:35 AM
After reading that HEM employees themselves currently consider HM1 an inferior product even themselves and considering that together with their corporate habit of exploiting paying customers as beta testers I have just completely lost faith in this company.


You meant " consider HM2" right?
You're twisting words here. :- With 'catching up' I meant there are dozens of cosmetic bugs still in HM2. They give HM1 -where those type of bugs don't exist- a more 'finished' feel.
If you look past those bugs, HM2 already has a lot MORE to offer. See:
http://www.holdemmanager.com/Downloads/HM2-12-Reasons-Introduction-3.wmv


So that brings -what I think it- is your main issue:
You simply don't like HM2, in a similar way many people didn't like Windows Vista... and I don't like Word 2010 (I still prefer Microsoft Word 2003) Performance issues will improve, cosmetic bugs will be fixed, graphs will get a 'cleaner' look, etc. but there's no magic solution for not liking the program. Unless you communicate with Morny what we should do to change your perspective.


Offtopic: http://teamcoco.com/video/christoph-waltz-germany-austria (on Germans having no sense of humor)

hundenapf@gmail.com
01-27-2012, 06:39 AM
My dislike has nothing to do with taste but rather with second long freezes during live play, the unresponsive Replayer, sluggishness to respond in the UI after every mouse click on the ribbon and various unexpected new bugs with every update – such as Notecaddy blocking my PC for days just recently – in addition to a couple of functions that are missing from HM1 completely (Table manager sortable by VPIP, Timeline slider in replayer, customizable reports...)

I actually do like the look and the potential the program has and I would really have liked to use it. That is why I spent so much time and effort on trying to make it work and it is not usually my habit to complain and make a fuss, I did not even have a forum account here for two years while I happily used HM1 before. But who cares for all the fancy new stuff in your pointless marketing video which is useless (database sync, hand upload, new notes and iphone app) as long as the program does not deliver the basic functionality.

Patvs
01-27-2012, 07:33 AM
As Morny pointed out, he 16-tables on a crappy computer without lagging/unresponsive/sluggishness.
I 24-table on a high-end computer without those issues.

So we're genuinely interested in your system, if you have a driver conflict, conflict with another program etc, causing these issues. Contact Morny for a teamviewer session.


(Marketing video: ignore HM Sync, notes, iphone app. But look at the street-by-street HUD and vsHERO HUD, which are great)

hundenapf@gmail.com
01-27-2012, 07:56 AM
I really dislike the idea of installing remote access software and have a stranger access my PC over the internet. Also I have uninstalled the software several days ago to free up my Postgres SSD again for HM1 and just today I have received a mail confirming my HM2 license has been revoked and turned into store credit or something like that on your account system, so there is nothing left at all of HM2 to try and work with.

If you want me to run some kind of diagnostics program to produce a log or systems overview of the PC in question or try something out for you on it I am however happy to do so and send it in if this may help narrowing down or solving these issues.

Hilips
01-27-2012, 08:07 AM
Just lost 15m typing a long post and i have no idea where i touched but the post is gone. FML!

Anyway, very very very short resume

- HM2 UI is in fact very slow to respond, changing tabs, or using the scroll bar on Home tab after adding a couple of widgets. This is very important, first impressions are very important IMO.

- Have no idea how HUD performance is, i never played a real session with it. It doesn't work properly at Microgaming after all this time, and i have bitched about it a lot. lol

- It doesn't use 1/5 of the power of the new I7 4 cores/8 threads processor. I have an I7, with 8GB of RAM and an SDD, when importing 300k hands it only uses 10-20% of the CPU. My E8400 dual core is actually faster with HM2 (uses 90%), because it has a higher clock speed. But in everything else I7 wipes the floor with the E8400.

- No words for the replayer, its bad .... sloooowwwwwww.


So yeh, i agree with a lot of things hundenapf@gmail.com said, and i do like HM!

30slou
01-27-2012, 11:13 AM
@hundenapf@gmail.com:

This is an interesting question. Since we don't make it clear that using the 'discount' will result in an expiring HM1 license. Whereas if you buy HM2 for the full price, your HM1 license won't expire. (but HM1 will stop getting updates in about a year, so it it basically results to the same thing)

Well at least we are not boring you!
Answer please!

melles
01-27-2012, 05:15 PM
HM2 already has a lot to offer just by the street-by-street HUD and vsHERO HUD alone

Vs HERO HUD is that vs hero stats that you can have in the hud and in popups.
If not where can I find more information about vs hero hud?

Patvs
01-27-2012, 08:25 PM
Well at least we are not boring you!
Answer please!


Did you also contact sales?



I contacted the sales team just now asking for some kind of compensation/refund for HM2 as it is clearly not in any working condition for me. What they have effectively done is sell me hot air and asking me to help them basically finish their product.

They answer that as a standard reply: trying to solve your bug/performance issues first (often moving the email to tech, where Morny will contact you) Just tell sales you have no interest in a teamviewer session.


@melles

Vs HERO HUD is that vs hero stats that you can have in the hud and in popups.


Yes, see: video @ http://www.holdemmanager.com/Downloads/HM2-12-Reasons-Introduction-3.wmv
You add them as regular stats to the HUD (or custom popup, and there is a vsHero popup). The stats will show how an opponent plays specifically against you.