Stars moving to weighted contributed method of rake

[Absolution]

The details are here:

PokerStars.com VIP Program and Ring Game Rake Changes effective January 1, 2012 - Internet Poker - Online Poker Forum (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28/internet-poker/pokerstars-com-vip-program-ring-game-rake-changes-effective-january-1-2012-a-1145272/)

Is there a away with the current Hold'em Manager 1 to get an estimate of our rake under this new method so we can see how these changes will affect our rakeback?

Thanks.

[krmont22]

+1 I really want a custom stat that will show me what my new Stars VPPs, VPP/hand, and overall rake will be under the new system!

[6thstreet]

that would be cool!

[ManuC]

+1

[MistaMelker]

How can i add "Weighted Contributed Rake" in the HEM-Reports?!? URGENT!!!

[guidosuller]

I found this:


<Stat ColumnName="WCRake" ValueExpressions="SUM(pkh.rakeamount * (phmisc.postamountpreflop + phmisc.betamountpreflop + phmisc.callamountpreflop + COALESCE(flop.betamount + flop.callamount, 0) + COALESCE(turn.betamount + turn.callamount, 0) + COALESCE(river.betamount + river.callamount, 0)) * 1. / (pkh.potsize + pkh.rakeamount)) * 0.01 AS WCRake" Evaluate="WCRake" ColumnHeader="WC Rake" ColumnFormat="$0.00" ColumnWidth="*" Tooltip="Weighted Contributed Rake (including uncalled bets)" />

[AK2404AK]

this stat is wrong (see other posts on 2+2 or pokerstrategy) is about 20 - 60% to less!

[netsrak]

We are aware of the stars update and working on a fix.

[guidosuller]

when will be an update available? :)

[6thstreet]

on 2+2 someone posted a sql query
Two Plus Two Poker Forums - View Single Post - PokerStars.com VIP Program and Ring Game Rake Changes effective January 1, 2012 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=30632888&postcount=901)

can you confirm that I won't kill my db with this?

[CoreySteel]

Please, do no forget to include "Old VPP" and "Old Rake" stat for PokerStars, so we can compare the numbers.

Thank you.

[Lokipower]

Shouldn't be too hard to compare your old number of VPP/hand with the new one (assuming you've got a good sample, 10k should be plenty).

[CoreySteel]

I've got hundreds of thousands hands in DB, but that's really not the point.

I would like to compare direct numbers.
Let's say whole January 2012 with Old vs. New VPP and Old vs New Rake.

There is already "Old VPP" stat from years back, so it shouldn't be problem to include 2011 ones too I guess :)

[struferga]

Any update for this?

[guidosuller]

Any update for this?

..

[netsrak]

We are still working on it

[guidosuller]

news?

[Lokipower]

Playing 15/13 in FR NL100 and seeing about a 30% drop (only 1k hands, so take it for what it's worth). I expect at least a 20% loss. Pretty disapointed.

[olliepower]

This is not yet fixed in holdem manager 1, sorry.

[guidosuller]

estimated release time?

[MellowYellow]

you are screwed guidosuller you nit!!! :D

Can we get stats that say like WC VPPs and then another for the 2011 one like how there are 2 or 3 now (most of them are no longer needed since the change was well over a year ago to make the older vpp/hand stats obsolete.)

[guidosuller]

you are screwed guidosuller you nit!!! :D

Can we get stats that say like WC VPPs and then another for the 2011 one like how there are 2 or 3 now (most of them are no longer needed since the change was well over a year ago to make the older vpp/hand stats obsolete.)

haha you remember me? i'm not a nit you fag ¬¬ yep, i agree with that, would be nice to have those stats. Stars 5x old vpps might help, but are by 5% inaccurate.

[guidosuller]

news? do you actually plan to make an update or Just pretend us to upgrade to HM2? Ty.

[Patvs]

HM1: already has the new rake method implemented. Please update to the latest version - http://www.holdemmanager.com/Downloads/HmUpdate.exe
In addition: if you want to see the difference in VPP:
Reports--> Add stat--> Misc Stats--> New Stars VPP Points

[guidosuller]

good news! but i just did the update and nothign changed...(I actually had already version 09a installed). Am I missing something?

[Patvs]

Sorry, I'm using a beta-release (also called 1.12.09, but it's effectively 1.12.09b)
This issue will be fixed in the next update.

Other PokerStars issues (for example with prefetch) will also be fixed in this build.

[guidosuller]

ok, gotta be patient then...thanks..

[guidosuller]

updates? why is it for HM2 and HM1 not?

[struferga]

Is it possible to get the release before the player meeting with stars is over, it would make it a whole lot easier to give educated input.

[struferga]

I originally typed in a longer, much more angry post. Shorter and nicer version:

The player meeting with stars management is happening right now! It will last 2 more days. It would be nice if you guys could give us a public release of that beta version while we can still influence the discussion with informed opinions and accurate numbers!
The changes to WC were announced almost a month ago! (Inaccurate) WC Scripts for HEM where on 2+2 a few hours into the new year. Whats the holdup??

Pls HEM guys, you make a great software, have excellent support, throw us a bone here. at least release the beta version while the negotiations with Stars are still happening.

[Patvs]

The hold-up is, comparing dealt rake vs weight contributed rake is something some users will only want to compare for about a week, to prove they're being screwed with the new system. So other (actual bugs) have had a higher priority on the to-fix/to-add list these past weeks.


I wasn't aware of this conference. (and you need actual percentages to see how much you're being screwed)

[struferga]

OK, fair enough.
I guess we could have informed you about the conference ahead of times. I just assumed that you were aware of it.

[moomies]

The hold-up is, comparing dealt rake vs weight contributed rake is something some users will only want to compare for about a week

VPP/hand stat is something i use year round. as it stands, the total VPP's and VPP/hand stats are(in some cases, highly) inaccurate. knowing how many VPPs are being earned in which games, at which stakes, at which table types is important.

[allwind]

I am SNE on Stars. I have been emailing with Stars. I had made my own calculations comparing with last year and this year. I have made an estimation after my first 50k vpp.

Totals:
50938 VPP
79903 Hands
10809 Rake Total

2/4
56157 Hands 2/4
7300 Rake 2/4

3/6
23363 Hands 3/6
3421 Rake 3/6

Rake needed to complete SNE
10809:50938*1000000=212199

Hands needed to complete SNE on 2/4
56157/7300*212199=1632392

Hands needed to complete SNE on 3/6
23363/3421*212199=1449169

It seems this year I need to rake a total $212199 instead of about $180000. That is an increase of 15% more rake or 10% more hands. For others these numbers might be different. My VPIP is 23.7%.

Stars was pointing out that the way HEM calculates rake. There are 2 ways to do it dealt and contributed. I pointed out there were also winners pays all. I always thought that the total rake calculation in HEM for any was winner pays it all.

Question for HEM to answer:
How is rake calculated in HEM 1, both before, and are there any changes to that now?

Of course, if HEM is not calculating rake as "winner pays all". And there are issues between dealt and contributed. My calculations are like way off.

[Patvs]

HM1: if a site has dealt rake (Cake Poker), HoldemManager uses dealt rake.
If a site uses weight-contributed, HoldemManager uses weight contributed.
We don't use a winner pays all method: only dealt, or weight-contributed.

The issue is when a site switches their rake-method.
For example Full Tilt -2010 is dealt-rake--> then they switched to weight-contributed.
PokerStars switched since 1th January 2012.

We then have to hard-code, that hands prior to date x--> uses method A, and after date x--> rake method B.

The stat for PokerStars currently has a delay, because users not only want the new rake method, but also want to be able to COMPARE it to the old system.

There is one exception though: the ONGAME network.
Ongame uses a MYSTERY rake formula since mid 2010 (which takes into account if you're a winning or a losing player)


Ongame Essence is all about a real-time-algorithm that measures the value of players by factoring in style of play and relative performance in the last 90 active days. Ongame Essence favors loosing players to winning players. This means that winning players receive less valueback (rakeback equiavalent) in terms of percentage than loosing players. This is a kind of new poker socialism.


This mystery formula is something HoldemManager can't program. No one knows what the formula is. So we use weight-contributed instead. (which for AVERAGE users should be SIMILAR to the real formula, but can vary GREATLY if you're highly profitable/losing player)

[allwind]

I understand why people are requesting both. The current change with stars is like a "Robin Hood" Rake. They rake "rich" the winners and they give the rewards back to also the "poor" loosers. They are doing what all other sites are already doing. I would prefer to be able to view my rake as I pay it. Meaning "Winner pays it all". I know you guys are very busy. When you do get time to look at this topic, please add "Winner pays all rake" as well. In that way we can get a number on the "Robin Hood Factor".

[allwind]

So here are some new calculations. It looks like I need to play 11% more hands with a VPIP of 23.8. Calculations are below.

Hands Played on various stakes:
5/10: 383
3/6: 24291
2/4: 56302
VPP this year: 51438


Add for more VPP from higher stakes factor
Poker Stars VIP Club - Supernova Elite Bonuses and Promotion (http://www.pokerstars.com/vip/supernova/elite/)
5/10: 383/1.25*1.5 = 460
3/6: 24291/1.25/1.5 = 29149
2/4: 56302

All: 460+29149+56302 = 85911

How many hands needed for me on 2/4?
58911/51438*1000000=1670185

[Patvs]

At least you play with a 'normal' VPIP value 6max.
I'm curious what will happen to extremely nitty 24-tabling fullring players with a VPIP of <13.

[allwind]

I'm curious what will happen to extremely nitty 24-tabling fullring players with a VPIP of <13.

I am curious as well, what will happen to a 24- Tabling nit.

Also I am curious what will happen with crushers like DuckinF0nk, fish2013, DrGiggy and Tim0Thee if it was "Winner gets it all".

[MellowYellow]

Arrgghh... why is your software so much nicer than Poker Tracker and easier to use, more informative, but the updates and fixes seem to always come out after.

I love and hate HEM.

[allwind]

So I believe the rake total in HEM is from rake that I paid to the site. Because, for years, every time I play a session. I write down my cashier amount in an excel sheet. How much I win or lose. HEM always agrees with this. (Unless I bought a bonus or had a player transfer.)

So my conclusion stands. With a VPIP of 23.8 in 6max. I need to play about 11% more hands to reach my VPP goal.

[Patvs]

Stars will completely re-design the rake again starting february 1?
PokerStars Player Representatives Report - Internet Poker - Online Poker Forum (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28/internet-poker/pokerstars-player-representatives-report-1159145/)

[allwind]

Stars will completely re-design the rake again starting february 1?
PokerStars Player Representatives Report - Internet Poker - Online Poker Forum (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28/internet-poker/pokerstars-player-representatives-report-1159145/)

This is the trustworthy rumor yes. But not yet confirmed from Stars.

For now, as I see it. They can do what ever changes they want. As long as I have the rake, as what I pay to the site. I will be able to measure how much rake I am paying. And compare accordingly.

[struferga]

Stars will completely re-design the rake again starting february 1?
PokerStars Player Representatives Report - Internet Poker - Online Poker Forum (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28/internet-poker/pokerstars-player-representatives-report-1159145/)

Yes, that is the rake table that will come into effect tomorrow.
Can you give us an estimate as to when HEM1 will get an update regarding that?
Right now a lot of players are confused about the changes and having HEM giving an accurate readout of the rake paid would help a lot in the coming days.

Lots of players are right now deciding whether to stick with Stars or switch sites and we rely on HEM to make up our mind.

[guidosuller]

Yes, that is the rake table that will come into effect tomorrow.
Can you give us an estimate as to when HEM1 will get an update regarding that?
Right now a lot of players are confused about the changes and having HEM giving an accurate readout of the rake paid would help a lot in the coming days.

Lots of players are right now deciding whether to stick with Stars or switch sites and we rely on HEM to make up our mind.

this

[MellowYellow]

afaik HEM DOESNT say the rake YOU paid to the site, it shows the Total rake divided by number of players in the hand not YOUR rake or else it would be easaier to figure out

[allwind]

afaik HEM DOESNT say the rake YOU paid to the site, it shows the Total rake divided by number of players in the hand not YOUR rake or else it would be easaier to figure out

As I say. I do a seperate book of what I have in my account. And compare these changes after every session in excel I do. These rake numbers are identical to what the site charged me rake. With all your respect. I go against your comments of contributed dealt or what ever rake you say is given in HEM. Rake figure given by HEM 1 = Winner pays it all.

I did some heavy analysis filtering a ton. It took me a lot of hours. I did a lot of calculations.

Here is a 2+2 post Two Plus Two Poker Forums - View Single Post - PokerStars Player Representatives Report (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=31267251&postcount=10)
My own analyses of 3/6 NL 6max came pretty close to this post. I trust this will be as good as it can get. For the changes taking place on Feb 1 this year.

As for the changes on Jan 1 it seems with my VPIP of 23.8% I need 11% more hands to complete SNE this year.

[MellowYellow]

well it's definitely not for me, in HEM it says i should have gotten 550 vpps, and that I've paid $100 in rake. (5.5 * 100 = 550) but I only got about 390 because it doesn't. You are saying your HEM already has WC figured out? Are you using HEM2? if so you are in the wrong thread.

[allwind]

well it's definitely not for me, in HEM it says i should have gotten 550 vpps, and that I've paid $100 in rake. (5.5 * 100 = 550) but I only got about 390 because it doesn't. You are saying your HEM already has WC figured out? Are you using HEM2? if so you are in the wrong thread.

I dont know whether you are reffering to me or not. I am not looking at those vpp stats in HEM. I do my own calculations. Maybe thats where the confusion comes from. I only look at rake paid to the site, and compares with how many hands I need to play more.

[struferga]

Hi, can you maybe give us an update or an ETA for a patch addressing this issue?

[Patvs]

I have no ETA when it will be added.

[guidosuller]

are you working on it or just plan to discontinue HM1 updates so that everyone must move to HM2?

[Patvs]

HM1 will still get basic updates for a year.
They include import fixes, HUD fixes, etc. but also still include EV fixes, and rake fixes (if a site changes the rake method)

[1mperial]

Any news, when we will see an update? Much time has passed I have gray hair, and no updates :(

[Patvs]

I have no eta on the next update. The delay to release the next update is currently caused because some important table scanner fixes need to be checked in first

[barkley]

I have no eta on the next update. The delay to release the next update is currently caused because some important table scanner fixes need to be checked in first

Any chance of releasing a partial release on File dropper like you did for us to prefetch hands? I really like knowing how many vpps I got today (without having to check the stars cashier and calculating while I'm playing). As well money won (or lost) is off due to the differences in rake, which is pretty important for some of us to have exact numbers (yes I know it isn't off by that much, but try saying that while doing taxes)

[CoreySteel]

Won/Lost shouldn't be off.

[barkley]

Won/Lost shouldn't be off.

I assumed since the amount Stars takes out of the pot changed so did the amount won, but looking at HEM amount won is figured to the penny (wouldnt have been that way with the old method) :o

So just to clarify Hem is currently figuring out the proper rake taken, the correct amount won/lost, but is still using the dealt method to figure out vpps awarded and is the only stat that is off

[Patvs]

@barkley: Yes, the VPP stat (in reports) is using the old dealt rake method.

[Patvs]

Any chance of releasing a partial release on File dropper like you did for us to prefetch hands?


In the 1.12.10 internal release I have the Stars rake stat update hasn't been checked in yet.

[MellowYellow]

What does that mean? I like how u are continuing by update HEM for a year, and by "update" u mean post "I have no eta". I know nothing about computers, but if u want u can hire me to do your updates, I can post BS in forums quite well.

You guys are thieves and HEM2 sucks. So ridiculously resource hungry. A 6gig quad processor can't run it. And HUD stats disappear and it looks like shit. But you are trying to force us to update it. If u need to charge more, charge me $20 to uPdate HEM 1 with the updates HEM2 has because that program is still brutal!

[Patvs]

HM1: any critical update that prevents a player from playing poker, importing hands, or getting a HUD is immediately fixed.
Non-critical updates like EV not being shown, the speed of a SNG being wrongly detected, or the wrong rake method VPP stat, etc. will still be fixed but with no eta.

HM2: There is no need to update (...yet) if you don't like HM2.
If you have performance issues, read:
http://forums.holdemmanager.com/manager-general/11194-top-10-hem-performance-increase-tips.html, and http://hm2faq.holdemmanager.com/questions/1501/What+can+be+done+if+HUD+is+lagging%3F

[Spec]

I'm a bit lost if there is already a solution for the new WC calculation of VPPs in Poker Stars in HM1.

I have the 1.12.09 version but in the meantime I read the topic http://forums.holdemmanager.com/poker-site-support/195841-vpp-stat-pokerstars.html which has a link to an exe file. Is this fixing the issue ? Is the exe to be run with the 1.12.09 version ?

I also read somewhere a reference to 1.12.10 which would fix the problem but in the official releases I can only find 1.12.09.

Sorry if this already answered before in the forum but I could find nothing apart from the above.

[netsrak]

1.12.10 has not yet been officially released, we only posted some internal prereleases in the forums.
The rake stat will be fixed with the official 1.12.10 release.

[1mperial]

You just kill yourself. I've always liked HM, but with the release of HM2 and HM1 support your users, I am thinking about switching to pokertracker. And many of my friends thought the same. If you do not review the relationship to the support of HM1, it will be the end of holdem manager. HM2 - shit (at least for now), all your hope for HM1, but you do not care about users.

[guidosuller]

you wont update HM1 anymore right? just do not fuck up with us and be honest guys

[netsrak]

We are working hard on a new HM1 release which will include zoom support

[cymp]

okay, and what about Stars moving to weighted contributed method of rake? Can we expect it for 2013?

[Patvs]

New rake calculation for Stars already is implemented in HM1. Update: HM1: http://www.holdemmanager.com/Downloads/HmUpdate_Release_1.12.11_09July2012.exe