Something very bad with NC Flop > Range sampling(Resolved)

[Olaf]

NC 2.2.2.0

Made a definition for check/raise Flop.

Holdem Manager show me 9 instances, Notecaddy - too, hands are the same.

"Do not take notes for missed opportunities" is On.

Seek:

Total found: 9. Success: 9/Opportunities: 0

BUT, As only in Flop > Range i uncheck any checkbox (For example Straight Flash) i recieve only 3 hands.

Seek:

Total found: 3. Success: 3/Opportunities: 0

Why?

[nilaynilay]

paste any of the 6 hands which should have been a success after u unchecked str8 flush. a def must be accompanied by a hh for us to be able to check anything.

Ty.

[Olaf]

paste any of the 6 hands which should have been a success after u unchecked str8 flush. a def must be accompanied by a hh for us to be able to check anything.

Ty.


***** History for hand R5-189264324-155 *****
Start hand: Sat Nov 05 09:13:00 GMT 2011
Table: Hartford [189264324] (NO_LIMIT TEXAS_HOLDEM $0.50/$1, Real money)
Button: seat 8
Players in Round: 5
Seat 3: czaroownik ($100.0)
Seat 4: Steevie2 ($234.72)
Seat 8: jalgarca ($88.15)
Seat 9: HateMeeAgain ($99.0)
Seat 10: rons. ($100.0)
HateMeeAgain posts small blind ($0.50)
rons. posts big blind ($1)
---
Dealing pocket cards
czaroownik folds
Steevie2 folds
jalgarca calls $1.0
HateMeeAgain raises $4.5 to $5.0
rons. folds
jalgarca calls $4.0
--- Dealing flop [7s, 3s, 7c]
HateMeeAgain checks
jalgarca bets $11.0
HateMeeAgain raises $25.0 to $25.0
jalgarca folds
---
Summary:
Main pot: $33 won by HateMeeAgain ($31.35)
Seat 3: czaroownik ($100.0), net: -$0
Seat 4: Steevie2 ($234.72), net: -$0
Seat 8: jalgarca ($72.15), net: -$16.0
Seat 9: HateMeeAgain ($114.35), net: +$15.35
Seat 10: rons. ($99.0), net: -$1.0
***** End of hand R5-189264324-155 *****



***** History for hand R5-190253387-170 *****
Start hand: Wed Nov 09 05:52:00 GMT 2011
Table: Madras [190253387] (NO_LIMIT TEXAS_HOLDEM $0.50/$1, Real money)
Button: seat 7
Players in Round: 6
Seat 3: M4ng0 ($30.44)
Seat 4: LILA2007 ($71.48)
Seat 5: HateMeeAgain ($102.18)
Seat 6: bschaef ($214.88)
Seat 7: cuLpaYYY69 ($87.51)
Seat 9: shousan ($86.0)
shousan posts small blind ($0.50)
M4ng0 posts big blind ($1)
---
Dealing pocket cards
LILA2007 calls $1.0
HateMeeAgain raises $5.0 to $5.0
bschaef folds
cuLpaYYY69 calls $5.0
shousan folds
M4ng0 folds
LILA2007 folds
--- Dealing flop [5c, 5s, 4d]
HateMeeAgain checks
cuLpaYYY69 bets $8.0
HateMeeAgain raises $22.5 to $22.5
cuLpaYYY69 folds
---
Summary:
Main pot: $28.5 won by HateMeeAgain ($27.08)
Seat 3: M4ng0 ($29.44), net: -$1.0
Seat 4: LILA2007 ($70.48), net: -$1.0
Seat 5: HateMeeAgain ($116.26), net: +$14.08
Seat 6: bschaef ($214.88), net: -$0
Seat 7: cuLpaYYY69 ($74.51), net: -$13.0
Seat 9: shousan ($85.5), net: -$0.5
***** End of hand R5-190253387-170 *****

[Olaf]

Coincidence or not - but not one of those six hands did not see the turn, the remaining three was with Turn!


3 Hands which are shown in Seek:


***** History for hand R5-189020211-127 *****
Start hand: Fri Nov 04 10:20:00 GMT 2011
Table: Chicago [189020211] (NO_LIMIT TEXAS_HOLDEM $0.50/$1, Real money)
Button: seat 2
Players in Round: 6
Seat 2: goldbaer1975 ($72.88)
Seat 3: lourk ($120.59)
Seat 4: rabbyday ($118.06)
Seat 5: TrudiTrouble ($61.31)
Seat 9: altous1 ($134.29)
Seat 10: HateMeeAgain ($149.58)
lourk posts small blind ($0.50)
rabbyday posts big blind ($1)
---
Dealing pocket cards
TrudiTrouble folds
altous1 folds
HateMeeAgain raises $3.0 to $3.0
goldbaer1975 calls $3.0
lourk folds
rabbyday folds
--- Dealing flop [7h, 5s, 2s]
HateMeeAgain checks
goldbaer1975 bets $1.0
HateMeeAgain raises $8.0 to $8.0
goldbaer1975 calls $7.0
--- Dealing turn [Jd]
HateMeeAgain checks
goldbaer1975 bets $23.5
HateMeeAgain calls $23.5
--- Dealing river [Qs]
HateMeeAgain checks
goldbaer1975 checks
---
Summary:
Main pot: $70.5 won by HateMeeAgain ($67.5)
Seat 2: goldbaer1975 ($38.38), net: -$34.5, [8d, As]
Seat 3: lourk ($120.09), net: -$0.5
Seat 4: rabbyday ($117.06), net: -$1.0
Seat 5: TrudiTrouble ($61.31), net: -$0
Seat 9: altous1 ($134.29), net: -$0
Seat 10: HateMeeAgain ($182.58), net: +$33.0, [8s, 8c]
***** End of hand R5-189020211-127 *****



***** History for hand R5-189728546-471 *****
Start hand: Mon Nov 07 08:30:00 GMT 2011
Table: Zagreb [189728546] (NO_LIMIT TEXAS_HOLDEM $0.50/$1, Real money)
Button: seat 2
Players in Round: 5
Seat 1: -007-007- ($300.25)
Seat 2: zak_moglis ($197.28)
Seat 4: chrisfinley ($113.21)
Seat 5: Bazinga314 ($115.88)
Seat 8: HateMeeAgain ($99.5)
chrisfinley posts small blind ($0.50)
Bazinga314 posts big blind ($1)
---
Dealing pocket cards
HateMeeAgain raises $3.0 to $3.0
-007-007- calls $3.0
zak_moglis folds
chrisfinley folds
Bazinga314 folds
--- Dealing flop [4h, 2c, 5h]
HateMeeAgain checks
-007-007- bets $7.5
HateMeeAgain raises $20.0 to $20.0
-007-007- calls $12.5
--- Dealing turn [Ac]
HateMeeAgain bets $30.0
-007-007- folds
---
Summary:
Main pot: $47.5 won by HateMeeAgain ($45.13)
Seat 1: -007-007- ($277.25), net: -$23.0
Seat 2: zak_moglis ($197.28), net: -$0
Seat 4: chrisfinley ($112.71), net: -$0.5
Seat 5: Bazinga314 ($114.88), net: -$1.0
Seat 8: HateMeeAgain ($121.63), net: +$22.13
***** End of hand R5-189728546-471 *****




***** History for hand R5-190845979-442 *****
Start hand: Fri Nov 11 04:33:00 GMT 2011
Table: Bethlehem [190845979] (NO_LIMIT TEXAS_HOLDEM $0.50/$1, Real money)
Button: seat 7
Players in Round: 6
Seat 1: HateMeeAgain ($122.0)
Seat 2: a.sponer ($91.66)
Seat 3: splitklit ($109.05)
Seat 7: bi1234bo ($67.93)
Seat 8: ReginaPhalan ($109.03)
Seat 10: davibavi ($36.38)
ReginaPhalan posts small blind ($0.50)
davibavi posts big blind ($1)
---
Dealing pocket cards
HateMeeAgain raises $3.0 to $3.0
a.sponer folds
splitklit folds
bi1234bo calls $3.0
ReginaPhalan folds
davibavi folds
--- Dealing flop [Td, Qd, 9c]
HateMeeAgain checks
bi1234bo bets $4.0
HateMeeAgain raises $18.0 to $18.0
bi1234bo calls $14.0
--- Dealing turn [Jh]
HateMeeAgain bets $30.0
bi1234bo raises $46.93 to $46.93 [all in]
HateMeeAgain calls $16.93
--- Dealing river [Th]
---
Summary:
Main pot: $137.36 won by HateMeeAgain ($134.36)
Seat 1: HateMeeAgain ($188.43), net: +$66.43, [Js, Kh]
Seat 2: a.sponer ($91.66), net: -$0
Seat 3: splitklit ($109.05), net: -$0
Seat 7: bi1234bo ($0.0), net: -$67.93, [8c, 7h]
Seat 8: ReginaPhalan ($108.53), net: -$0.5
Seat 10: davibavi ($35.38), net: -$1.0
***** End of hand R5-190845979-442 *****

[nilaynilay]

looking into this

[nilaynilay]

yes i can replicate what you reported.
if str8 flush is unchecked it reports incorrect flop hand. going to escalate this to sreti as a bug

However you def is wrongly built. from what i gather you want NC to report how often his check raise is strong. so you should say define opp by range and choose implict strength or you can define what hands he should have shown down(and say dont take notes for missed opp)

however since most hands wont go to SD implicit performs much better in these types of cases

[Olaf]

yes i can replicate what you reported.
if str8 flush is unchecked t reports incorrect flop hand. going to escalate this to sreti as a bug

However you def is wrongly built. from what i gather you want NC to report how often his check raise is strong. so you should say define opp by range and choose implict strength or you can define what hands he should have shown down(and say dont take notes for missed opp)

however since most hands wont go to SD implicit performs much better in these typ0es of cases


Thank you for your attention and hint, but I specifically modified (simplified) definition in order to highlight the problem.

From your answer i don't shure that you undersand that problem not only with Str8 flash, it was simply example. If I uncheck Any checkbox, or group checkboxes in RANGE section, i recieve bad results.

[nilaynilay]

From your answer i don't shure that you undersand that problem not only with Str8 flash, it was simply example. If I uncheck Any checkbox, or group checkboxes in RANGE section, i recieve bad results

of course i understand. this is why it has been escalated as a confirmed bug.

[sreticentv]

If you leave everything for flop hands checked that means NC doesn't care what they had on the flop. They had to have something so it has to be valid. As soon as you uncheck a single item, NC will look to see what they had. If the person didn't showdown then it is invalid since NC perceives your intention to filter by their flop hand strength. If you uncheck, for example, straight flush, NC can't tell for sure that the guy didn't have a straight flush since he didn't show down so it is invalid.

Please explain what the reasoning is in modifying the flop range if your intention isn't to filter by flop range

[nilaynilay]

Sreti is right here. i didnt realize you didnt have went to SD ticked

[Olaf]

Please explain what the reasoning is in modifying the flop range if your intention isn't to filter by flop range

My intention was to filter by flop range.
The reason for my mistake was in misunderstanding Implicit strength . I thought that if a player, for example check/raise and the opponent - fold, it is "implicit Strength" also. So I expect that I will also see in "Seek" hands where opponent folded instantly, not only in next actions/streets.


Apparently, I ignored the word "after continuing to show agression" in balloon. English is not my native language, and that such omissions can lead to serious logical errors.

In my defense, I can say that a good manual where it would have been described in detail would greatly help people like me:)

[Olaf]

Guys, now I'm testing my revised definition, i don't use Range tab at all, only $flophandrange variable.

(Flop > check/Raise $flophandrange)

Now i see this in my notes: Flop > check/Raise {Nut Straight, small Overpair}(9)

All Is great, except one moment - i expect: Flop > check/Raise {impl. strength, Nut Straight, small Overpair}(9)


Here is a hand that I expect see as Implicit Strength, but Seek show me only "Flop > check/Raise{} *SUCCESS*", what is my mistake?



***** History for hand R5-189728546-471 *****
Start hand: Mon Nov 07 08:30:00 GMT 2011
Table: Zagreb [189728546] (NO_LIMIT TEXAS_HOLDEM $0.50/$1, Real money)
Button: seat 2
Players in Round: 5
Seat 1: -007-007- ($300.25)
Seat 2: zak_moglis ($197.28)
Seat 4: chrisfinley ($113.21)
Seat 5: Bazinga314 ($115.88)
Seat 8: HateMeeAgain ($99.5)
chrisfinley posts small blind ($0.50)
Bazinga314 posts big blind ($1)
---
Dealing pocket cards
HateMeeAgain raises $3.0 to $3.0
-007-007- calls $3.0
zak_moglis folds
chrisfinley folds
Bazinga314 folds
--- Dealing flop [4h, 2c, 5h]
HateMeeAgain checks
-007-007- bets $7.5
HateMeeAgain raises $20.0 to $20.0
-007-007- calls $12.5
--- Dealing turn [Ac]
HateMeeAgain bets $30.0
-007-007- folds
---
Summary:
Main pot: $47.5 won by HateMeeAgain ($45.13)
Seat 1: -007-007- ($277.25), net: -$23.0
Seat 2: zak_moglis ($197.28), net: -$0
Seat 4: chrisfinley ($112.71), net: -$0.5
Seat 5: Bazinga314 ($114.88), net: -$1.0
Seat 8: HateMeeAgain ($121.63), net: +$22.13
***** End of hand R5-189728546-471 *****

[Olaf]

Ouch, i found that - Settings > Show result for implicit strength/weaknes

Small buggy is there - This function don't work until i close/relaunch NC.


+ as i said above

In my defense, I can say that a good manual where it would have been described in detail would greatly help people like me

[nilaynilay]

we are working on a new manual. However a lot of stuff is written up in gr8 detail if you read all the links word for word.

http://forums.holdemmanager.com/notecaddy/147941-just-getting-started-notecaddy-read-first.html