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View Full Version : Preflop>Action>"All PF Action perfomed must be selected" not work with 4Bet Actions?



Olaf
12-18-2011, 10:27 PM
NoteCaddy 2.2.2.0

Absolutely new definition:

Preflop> Action > Open Raise/4N bet, Open 4 bet checked.

Seek give me 84 instances in my Database

As only I use Preflop> Action > "All PF Action perfomed must be selected" Seek don't show me any
instances, but this is impossible, trust me :) (For example, some of my 4Bet was Alin)

This problem don't give me possibility to note some interesting 4Bet situations :(

nilaynilay
12-19-2011, 01:02 AM
you need to attach a hh where the def should be true but isnt and also you def and we will look into it.

we have a dedicated forum which is more suitable for this.
Definition Help (http://assaultwareforums.com/forumdisplay.php?5-Definition-Help)

Olaf
12-20-2011, 11:39 AM
Open Raise/4N bet, Open 4 bet checked don't work with "All PF Action perfomed must be selected"

Olaf
12-23-2011, 09:20 PM
Do you see my previous message, or i must post it in Assaultware Forums (http://assaultwareforums.com) ? :)

nilaynilay
12-23-2011, 09:32 PM
will reply after christmas. thanks

Olaf
12-26-2011, 10:48 AM
will reply after christmas. thanks

I'll wait, thank you

nilaynilay
12-26-2011, 07:57 PM
open 4 bet is cold 4 betting. so if player 1 raises player 2 3bets and player3 4 bets, its a open 4 bet for player3. also known as cold 4 betting

so untick that box(screenshot shows wrong box to untick). and you need to tick open raise as you cannot have a 4 bet without it.

http://i41.tinypic.com/358tqub.png

Olaf
12-26-2011, 09:27 PM
open 4 bet is cold 4 betting. so if player 1 raises player 2 3bets and player3 4 bets, its a open 4 bet for player3. also known as cold 4 betting

so untick that box(screenshot shows wrong box to untick). and you need to tick open raise as you cannot have a 4 bet without it.


nilaynilay Something wrong with that 4Bet boxes.

1)In my definition, which i send to you in first message i don't have Cold Call/4 Bet checked.


2) Yes, when "Open Raise" and "All PF Action perfomed must be selected" checked NC really show me what i want - 4Bets, but why i need to check "Open Raise"?
Is the "Open Raise/4N bet" does not have Open Raise in yourself?


3) Open Raise/4N bet work beautiful without "Open Raise" checked, when "All PF Action perfomed must be selected" is off too.


4)If i switch off "All PF Action perfomed must be selected" and forget to disable excess "Open Raise", I get a lot of hands without 4Bet that will lead to an error in notes.

I see no logical necessity to use "Open Raise" checkbox when "All PF Action perfomed must be selected" is ON, but it demands NC in order to achieve the desired result

nilaynilay
12-26-2011, 10:02 PM
i did write :so untick that box(screenshot shows wrong box to untick).
the wrong box got outlined in the screen shot as u can understand by now.


Is the "Open Raise/4N bet" does not have Open Raise in yourself?

No and that should explain why there is necessity to
use "Open Raise" checkbox when "All PF Action perfomed must be selected" is ON, but it demands NC in order to achieve the desired result

and it will explain all the other stuff u mentioned

Olaf
12-26-2011, 10:21 PM
i did write :so untick that box(screenshot shows wrong box to untick).

sorry for this, nilaynilay, i'm not so stupid, simply english is not my native language, and I translated your sentence with an error :(


nilaynilay, please, explain me what "Open Raise/4N bet" exactly mean? I have now 4.30 am, maybe I do not understand something, but I need help:) I think HERO Open raise > Enemy 3 Bet > Hero 4 Bet. But you say, that i am wrong... Help me to understand what is that, and why it can't be OPR>3B>4B in NC

nilaynilay
12-26-2011, 10:27 PM
sorry for this, nilaynilay, i'm not so stupid, simply english is not my native language,
no problem mate. English is my second language too. and your eng is quite gd actually.


please, explain me what "Open Raise/4N bet" exactly mean?
it means he open raises then makes a 4 bet but also includes a reraise after a 4 bet too which almost never happens in real life.

so 3N bet means 3 bet but also includes 4 bet too.

The N stands for subsequent re raises

nilaynilay
12-26-2011, 10:29 PM
when "All PF Action performed must be selected" is ON, then you need to tick open raise too coz openraise/4 bet wont include the open raise.

altho i can see that logically it should include it . could be oversight-i will ask Sreti

Ignatz
12-31-2011, 08:00 AM
Hello Nilay,
I found this thread as well. One thing that I wanted to ask on this matter is if this is confined only to 4 bets and open raises? Logically, this throws into doubt all of the Limp/actions, 3-bet/actions, check/actions, call/actions and so on.

Thanks again.

nilaynilay
12-31-2011, 08:29 AM
I will have Sreti confirm this.

Ignatz
01-01-2012, 04:29 PM
I will have Sreti confirm this.

Thanks and Happy New Year!

sreticentv
01-01-2012, 08:56 PM
when "All PF Action performed must be selected" is ON, then you need to tick open raise too coz openraise/4 bet wont include the open raise.

altho i can see that logically it should include it . could be oversight-i will ask Sreti

this is correct. As far as the 3 and 4 and n etc it is confusing but you can use the bolt! to help clarify it.

English is not my first language either. I think at this point most people dealing with poker would say the same :( Sucks I do live in the US though

Ignatz
01-02-2012, 11:32 AM
this is correct. As far as the 3 and 4 and n etc it is confusing but you can use the bolt! to help clarify it.


So, I am trying to clarify your answer here, concerning the Open Raise and 4-bet. Yes, open raise must be selected as well, but is this an oversight and will it be corrected in an update? Also is this confined only to Open Raise/4-bets or does it concern every instance where more than one action occurs? For example, Limp/actions, 3-bet/actions, check/actions, call/actions and so on.

Thanks!

sreticentv
01-05-2012, 08:16 AM
I will look at it more closely though I am not sure in what scenario this creates a problem

Ignatz
01-05-2012, 09:14 AM
The problem occurs when I select 'cold call/4 bet' but didn't already select 'cold call'.

What about a situation where I select 'check/raise' but I didn't select 'check', because I am not interested in cases where player only checked.

I am not saying that it is necessary to select 'check' as well as 'check/raise' in these instances because I haven't gone through and tested each variation to confirm this, since resetting the notes is a time consuming process. I assume that it isn't necessary to select 'check' as well because that would be redundant.

I am only attempting to confirm that the 'cold call/4 bet' situation is single, special case oversight and that it isn't necessary to select all the items every time one is using the "All PF Action performed must be selected" option with all other two part actions.

Thanks for your time.

sreticentv
01-06-2012, 05:43 PM
I think what I am failing to understand is that if you pick something like "cold call/4 bet" then why would you want "all actions performed had to be selected"? If he just cold calls then it doesn't count.

After the 4 bet only a 5 bet can happen. So what you want is that he 4 bets but then doesn't 6 bet?

Olaf
01-06-2012, 06:32 PM
I think what I am failing to understand is that if you pick something like "cold call/4 bet" then why would you want "all actions performed had to be selected"? If he just cold calls then it doesn't count.

After the 4 bet only a 5 bet can happen. So what you want is that he 4 bets but then doesn't 6 bet?


1) 3Bet> Hero 4Bet AlIn
2) 3Bet> Hero 4Bet>Opponent Call

When I create this thread, I spent half the day trying to figure out where is my mistake. It turns out that I had to put this unfortunate "open raise"



The problem occurs when I select 'cold call/4 bet' but didn't already select 'cold call'.

What about a situation where I select 'check/raise' but I didn't select 'check', because I am not interested in cases where player only checked.

I am not saying that it is necessary to select 'check' as well as 'check/raise' in these instances because I haven't gone through and tested each variation to confirm this, since resetting the notes is a time consuming process. I assume that it isn't necessary to select 'check' as well because that would be redundant


This is exactly what I want to say since, as created this thread

Ignatz
01-07-2012, 01:57 PM
I think what I am failing to understand is that if you pick something like "cold call/4 bet" then why would you want "all actions performed had to be selected"? If he just cold calls then it doesn't count.

After the 4 bet only a 5 bet can happen. So what you want is that he 4 bets but then doesn't 6 bet?

Yes, excellent question. The previous poster has basically expressed the idea, but I'll give you my version.

So I have two very important definitions: Go All-In and Call All-in.

To me, these are the two most basic definitions, but they are also the most difficult to define.

I assume the system was programmed for positive hits. Do any of these situations occur? If yes, then it is a hit.

Later the negative option was added. Now the question becomes, has anything occurred that is not on this list. If so, it would be counted as a miss.

So, consider a Call All-In definition. If Open Raises/Call 3-bet is selected and someone open raises and calls a 3-bet, getting all their money in, it should be counted as a hit. However, because the redundancies have not been accounted for, Open Raise must also be selected. This however now allows for false readings. If, for example, a player's Open Raise puts him All-In then this would be a false positive for the Call All-In definition, due to the redundant inclusion of the Open Raise.

In the positive situation, the redundancies don't matter. In the negative case, they do. Anytime two situations are included, if the single action needs to be selected in addition to the compound action, then the possibility of false positives exist.

My concern is that the Open Raise/Call 4-Bet oversight is not an oversight at all, that the problem is not a single error but rather a systemic design flaw. I fear that these redundancies exist for every multiple action option and that the Open Raise/Call 4-Bet is just the most obvious of a variety of systemic errors due to the program's inability to handle the redundancies inherent in the parameters themselves.

For another example consider, for a Go All-In definition, the various Open Raise options. Obviously, the only important one is the Open Shove option. But then we have the Open Raise/4-Bet option. Is it necessary to select any or all of the various Open Raise single action options to make the Open Raise/4-Bet come out positive? Logically it is only necessary to have the Open Shove selected. Logically an Open raise of any size followed by a 4-bet will read as positive.

So as an experiment I just created a definition with a single action Open Raise/4-Bet and I selected that All Actions Had to Occur. And I had zero hits on a data base with tens of thousands of hands. I then added Open Min raise to the definition and it found all the times the player Open Min Raise and also all the times that he Open Min Raised and then 4-Bet. I want to know however when he Open Raises any size before 4-betting, but I don't want to know when he Open Raised and Called a 3-Bet, for example.

Now to set these up I need those situations where, on one hand, all of the Calling options are selected and on the other, all of the bet and raise actions are chosen. Also the Had To Get All-In or the Had To Not Act during the next street option.

However frequently situations occur where hands can slip through. A player might bet, but then call a raise, putting him All-In. So the definitions need to be nailed down by selecting the All Options Selected Must Occur. Then the actions need to be selected so that, with dual actions, the second action is always a call, for example. So, in an ideal world, the following definition would work flawlessly for a Calling All-In definition:

Limp/Call
Cold call 3-Bet
Cold call Oversized raise (I'm not interested when they Cold Call a small or normal size raise)
Cold Call Raise/Call 3-bet
Open raise/call 3-bet
3-bet/Call 4-bet
Call 5-bet

Now that should be enough. But it isn't.
3-bet must be selected for the 3-bet/Call 4-bet action to work. And each sort of 3-bet needs to be specified, min, regular, or oversized. Redundant. Clearly, it isn't be size of the 3-bet that matters, but rather a 3-bet of any size was made.
Cold Call Raise must be selected for the Cold Call Raise/Call 3-bet (I am interested in every-sized Raise as it is the Call of the 3-bet that is the focus. Only the Call Oversize Raises are available unless the actions are included.)

In fact, the only dual action I have discovered that does not require a redundant definition is Limp/Call, although I haven't checked them all. Clearly this is not an acceptable situation as the "all actions performed had to be selected" option is broken in almost every dual action option.

The point that I am trying to make is that this is an obvious error. The options do not do what one would expect them to do. When I select 3-bet/Call 4-bet I should not have to also select 3-bet and I certainly shouldn't have to select all three sizes. That's simply counter-intuitive plus it breaks the system, making it impossible to program ironclad definitions for All-ins and Go All-Ins. Things would be much easier if you altered the code so that the options do what they say they do. It is a problem, otherwise I wouldn't be wasting my time writing these long posts trying to get it fixed.

Don't get me wrong. Note Caddy is the greatest thing since instant noodles. These are just little issues that I keep brushing up against.

Many Thanks

Ignatz
01-07-2012, 09:15 PM
I will now test every dual action and record which ones fail without making redundant settings:
All preflop actions must be selected:

Pre-Flop:

Limp/Raise Fail
Cold Call/4-Bet Fail
Cold Call Raise/ Call 3-N Bet Fail
Open Raise/4-N Bet Fail
Open Raise/call 3-N Bet Fail
3-Bet/Call 4-N Bet Fail

Post Flop:

All of the Check/actions Pass

Min Bet/Call Fail
Medium bet/Call Fail
Pot bet/call Fail
min Bet/3-N Raise fail
Medium Bet/3-N Raise Fail
Pot Bet/3-N Raise Fail

The Calls all pass
The Raises all pass
The re-Raise also all pass

The dual actions that fail all require redundant information. They should pass if the first action occurs, regardless of the size. So for example in Cold Call/4-bet it should matter how large the original raise was. All sizes should count, and none should have to be selected.

In the case of Medium Bet/Call, of course, the bet size is already indicated.

I hope this helps to make the scale of this issue clear.

Ignatz
01-08-2012, 05:03 PM
BUMP!!!

Waiting for a reply here.

Ignatz
01-08-2012, 05:38 PM
For Farts sake, what does it take to get a helpful response on this issue?

Look, let's say that on the flop I want to know when someone Calls All-In:

43981

As you can see, I have selected every option where the second action is Call.

This works fine for the Check/actions and the Call options. It does not work for the bet actions however. It will record 0 hits for min Bet/Call, Medium Bet/Call, and Pot Bet/Call. ZERO HITS!

It will only work if you also select Min Bet, Small Bet, Medium bet, Pot-size bet, and Oversize bet as well.
44021
Obviously, I am not interested in recording when a player makes these bets unless he ends up calling, which is why I selected:

44011 in the first place.
Until this is corrected my All-In and Call All-In notes are corrupted. These are also my most valuable notes. Do you see the problem there?

Ignatz
01-08-2012, 07:26 PM
:mad:Frustration mounting! I see other threads getting replies while this one is being ignored.:mad:

sreticentv
01-08-2012, 09:33 PM
Something will be worked out for this shortly. I appreciate your patience while it is analyzed

Ignatz
01-08-2012, 09:54 PM
OK, sorry. I was out of line.

Great to know you are on the job. No rest. Weekends and all.

I'll shut up now.

sreticentv
01-10-2012, 08:01 AM
You may want to download http://www.assaultware.com/NoteCaddy.latest.zip and copy the files into your HM2 install path. The logic was changed to not count actions that occurred prior to the actions you selected. That is a volatile change so it won't be in the next hm2 release but it might improve things for you. If you still have problems, please just paste a hand and a definition and I can look again

Ignatz
01-10-2012, 10:25 AM
Thanks a lot. I'll let you know if my computer explodes.

This has really hampered my definition building progress. Thanks again!!

geek
04-22-2012, 04:25 PM
Did this get clarified or is it resolved? It causes confusion for sure.