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View Full Version : Does Limp-Raise count as 3bet? (and some other stuff)



Sempronius
12-13-2011, 06:56 PM
Hi, here is some questions about stats.
Stats definitions on faq.holdemmanager.com are a pretty vague, and I can't understand some basic concepts.

1. I understand HM stats concept as follows.
For every stat we have samples and percentage. Samples are number of cases, where certain event could happen. Percentage are amount of events, that actually happened, divided by amount of total cases, where this event could happen.
For example, "Fold to Bet Flop" stat. Case there should be "I'm still in play on flop and somebody making Bet (and nobody after that made Raise? - I'm not shure about this)". Event should be "I fold after that, without doing anything else". So whenever I'm caught in corresponding case, Samples of corresponding stat raises. If then I'm making certain event - event counter raises, raising percentage. If I'm not - event counter stands, thus lowering percentage.
Question number 1 is "am I right?"

2. VPIP.
I was trying to watch how VPIP is changing on low-hands opponents, and found out, that sometimes on BB percentage and samples of VPIP doen't change at all. It happens on freeplay (BB checks) or smth, I don't actually know.
It's like event happens when "Player voluntary puts money in pot (on preflop? or on postflop too)" and in case of freeplay samples counter is not raised.
Am I right? How does VPIP works on BB?

3. PFR.
Does PFR change after limp/raise, for example? As http://faq.holdemmanager.com/questions/95/Stat+Definitions#pfr says "PFR Pre Flop Raise". Well, limp/raiser actually "raises preflop", doesn't he? But my coach always says "limp/raise shouldn't count as PFR", so I decided to ask here.
What are PFR "case" and "event"? "Event", I believe, is "we raise". But "case" - is it "your a playing some preflop" or "your a playing preflop and everybody before you folded or limped".
There is more to it - here is another question. Does PFR change after simple 3bet? (I mean UTG raised, MP 3bet - does MP's PFR change after that?)

4. 3bet (preflop)
Does 3bet change after limp/raise? Same theme, actually. Actually my coach says "limp/raise shouldn't count as 3bet".

Patvs
12-14-2011, 01:07 AM
1. Yes. As an example take the stat "Flop Continuation Bet".
When you're the preflop aggressor, you have the chance to continuation bet postflop.
So the % will show how often you Cbet out of all your opportunities.
The ( ) will show the amount of chances you had to Cbet.
And sometimes (for example when an opponent donkbets out of position) he will take away your opportunity to make a Cbet.
You will be then be able to raise his donkbet, but that won't be a Cbet anymore.

4. If you limp-reraise, it is not a 3bet..... but it's a limp-reraise which can be found under the Limp category.
It's only a 3bet, if your first action is 3betting against a raiser.
4bet is even more interesting: it's only a 4bet if you were the initial raiser--> an opponent 3bets--> you then 4bet.
If an opponent raises, another opponent 3bets, and you then 4bet, it is not a "4bet" but a "cold 4bet".

2. VPIP is voluntary put money in pot. (preflop only)
In the BB you do NOT put money in voluntarily, but you're forced to do so. So these hands (when you check in the big blind) are not counted towards your VPIP. In the SB if you call (calling 0.5 big blind extra) the hand will be counted towards the VPIP.

3. limp-reraising is counted towards your PFR.
Any hand you raise preflop (or 3bet) or limp-reraise will count towards the PFR.

Sempronius
12-18-2011, 11:35 PM
Here's some more questions about cbets.
1. In case of donkbets does cbet stats counts following events?
Example: some people folded, Hero BU raised preflop, Opp SB called preflop, BB folded. Flop Opp SB donkbet, Hero BU raised, Opp SB folded
Questions are.
a. Does Hero flop raise count as Flop CBet?
b. Does Opp SB fold after that count as Fold to CBet flop?

2. When preflop-aggressor just calls?
Example: some people folded, Hero BU raised preflop, Opp SB called preflop, BB folded.
Flop Opp SB donkbet, Hero BU called.
Turn Opp SB bet, Hero folded
Questions:
a. Does Turn Opp SB bet count as CBet Turn?
b. Does Turn Hero fold count as Fold to CBet Turn?

3. Another example. Limped pot, is there anb "CBets"?
Example: Some folded, Opp SB limped, Hero BB checked.
Flop Opp SB checked, Hero BB Bet, Opp SB called.
Turn Opp SB checked, Hero BB Bet, Opp SB folded.

I'm sure that Flop Hero BB is NOT CBet.
But
a. Does Turn Hero Bet count as CBet Turn?
b. Does Turn Opp fold count as Fold to CBet Turn?
c. What if on Turn Opp raised in the first place - does it count as Donkbet Turn?


4. Can't find any stats like "Raise turn". Does "Bet turn" count that cases?

Patvs
12-19-2011, 01:03 AM
1.a No, it's not a Cbet if the opponent donkbets firsts.
All sorts of different stats now become useful in this situation:
Donkbet
Fold to Donk bet flop / Fold to Donk bet flop raised pot / Fold vs Flop Raise (in the Bet category can also be used)
Raise Donk bet flop (<--- this is the action of the hero)
b. No. It's a "Fold donk bet vs raise flop".

2.a No, the SB donk bets the turns
b. No, the hero folds to a turn donk bet (that stat actually doesn't exist in HM1 -it does in HM2- so the closest stat in HM1 is just Fold vs Turn Bet


3.a No, for a Cbet there has to be a raised pot (or 3bet/4bet, etc.)
If it's a limped pot:
On the flop the Misc stat: Steal Limped Pot (post flop) applies
On the turn the hero just makes a Bet Turn
b. No, just a Fold to Turn Bet
c. Turn: If SB bet out first to act it's a Turn Bet, if he check-raises the hero, it's a check-raise.


4. A Turn Bet is not a raise.
Turn Raise (for limped pots) doesn't exist in HM1. The closest stat in HM1 to it is:
Raise Turn CB
Raise Turn CB (IP)
Raise Turn CB (OOP)
Raise Turn CB 3bet pot

All these stats will only work on a raised pot.


Cbet = can only be done by the preflop aggressor.
If another opponent takes over the role of the aggressor postflop, none of the cbet stats will apply to him. He will always be a donkbetter / regular better
Donkbet = is betting into a player who was the initial raiser. So all donkbet stats require a raised pot.

Patvs
12-19-2011, 03:16 AM
If someone doesn't make a continuation bet (but either checks first to act, or checks behind) another useful stat is:
Bet vs Missed Flop CB (in the vsContinuation Bet category)


With so many stats, easiest to do is:
-if there is a raised/3bet/4bet pot---> focus on the main Cbet stats: Flop CB/Fold to Cbet/Raise Flop Cbet, etc. stats. Also look at Turn Cbet, so you'll know the chance to expect a second barrel (and Fold to Turn Cbet).

-if there is no Cbet-->
Look at Bet vs Missed Flop CB (when the initial raiser doesn't Cbet) and
all the donk stats (if the raiser is denied the chance to bet): Donkbet, Fold to Donk bet flop, Raise Donk bet flop

-if it's a limped pot:
You could look at Steal Limped Pot (post flop), and a dozen of other stats, but the easiest stats to look at to always have in your HUD:
(which you can ALSO use for ALL the other situations) are *the aggression stats*: the overall likelihood somebody will bet/raise vs call.