HEM 2 Stat requests (new 4 bet stats)

[Azalin]

Currently the fold to 4bet stats make no distinction between the following cases:

a) MP raises first in CO 3bets MP 4bets CO folds
b) MP raises first in CO 3bets BTN (or SB or BB!) 4bets MP folds CO folds

clearly those are very different situations

What I ask is for a specific fold to 4bet/call 4bet/raise 4bet (5bet) against the original player who raises first in and proceeds to 4bet only AND a different fold 4bet/call 4bet/raise 4bet (5bet) against a new cold 4bettor.

I am wondering how come nobody has mentioned this already for HEM1 - or perhaps I missed it?

[udbrky]

Thank you, I forwarded the request.

[TheZepper]

Azalin - situation b) is classified in HM2 as vs 2+ Raisers instead of a Cold 4Bet - you just pointed out one of the biggest reasons why. We have positional Raise and Defend stats too.

Situation a) - the typical 3Bet/4Bet/5Bet scenario - is pretty well covered: there are more than 100 related stats in HM2 .....

[Azalin]

Azalin - situation b) is classified in HM2 as vs 2+ Raisers instead of a Cold 4Bet - you just pointed out one of the biggest reasons why. We have positional Raise and Defend stats too.

Situation a) - the typical 3Bet/4Bet/5Bet scenario - is pretty well covered: there are more than 100 related stats in HM2 .....


Thanks for the reply.

So to be clear.. the (a) situation is the classic 4bet stat and that stat does NOT include situations like (b) correct?
If thats the case and (b) is covered by 2+raisers stats then please help me understand the following scenarios:

Lets take for example the "SB raise vs 2+ Raisers" stat.

a) MP raises first in, CO 3bets, SB cold 4bets. I am guessing thats the "SB raise vs 2+ Raisers" right?

b) MP limps, CO raises, SB raises. Does the "Sb raise vs 2+ Raisers" count that also? What if there are more limps (etc UTG limps and the action stays the same)?

c) I am guessing the "EP raise vs 2+ Raisers" and "MP raise vs 2+ Raisers" Stats are always 0% for 6max right?

d) I see "TOT call vs 2+ Raisers" and "TOT defend vs 2+ Raisers". Whats the difference between them?

e) Whats the difference between the "BTN 3Bet" Stat and the vs 1 Raiser "BTN 3Bet vs Raiser" Stat if any?

d) I see that there are stats that use the word "defend" and stats that use "call". If defend = call then I think
it would be a good idea to use only call on all stats to avoid confusion.

e) "EP fold to 3Bet IP" means that the EP raised and MP/CO or BTN 3bet and EP folded OR thas SB/BB 3bet and EP folded?

Please make a more detailed guide for explaining every stat. As is, there are many stats that have confusing names.

[TheZepper]

Azalin: Details are coming with the Stat FAQ's. Sorry, can't give you reasonable estimate on when at this time, and I don't want to mislead you.

(a) and (b). Correct
a) Yes
b) Number of limpers doesn't count in vs 2+ Raisers stats. Just requires two or more Raisers.
c) Correct - these only apply in Full Ring (or greater than 6max).
d) Defend = Call + Raise
e) The vs 1 Raiser stats are vs a single raiser. You can find 3Bet stats in the following Categories:


3Bet vs Single Raiser - vs 1 Raiser
3Bet vs Raiser and/or Limper(s) - 3Bet
3Bet vs Raiser and Caller(s) - Squeeze
3Bet vs Hero - vs Hero

So, BTN 3Bet is a 3Bet vs a Single Raiser or a Raiser and Limper(s) whereas
BTN 3Bet vs 1 Raiser is a 3Bet vs a Single Raiser - no Limpers

Note that there are 4 preflop options for you to choose from:

Fold
Call
Raise
Defend (Call + Raise)

Last, but not least:

In HM2, in order to avoid confusion, the stats are generally written from the players point of view. However, in some cases, like Fold to 3Bet, the IP/OOP designation doesn't seem to work very well. Let me get back to you on this one.

Hope this helps,

TheZepper

[Azalin]

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

So..

a) MP limpts BTN raises is counted in the general 3bet stats for BTN?

b) MP limps CO limps BTN raises is counted on the 3bet stats (as above)?

If I understood correct the answer to the above Qs is yes. If thats the case then:

a1) [Continuing the action in the a)] MP limps BTN raises MP raises. The last MP action is accounted by the general 4bet stat?

b1) [Continuing the action in the b)] MP limps CO limps BTN raises MP raises. The last MP action is accounted by the general 4bet stat?

b2) MP limps CO limps BTN raises MP raises CO raises is accounted in the 5bet stat?

In the above examples I am talking about the current HEM2 stats but I also would like to ask if those Qs have different answers in regards to HEM1 stats.

IF I the answer to the above is yes then the 3bet/4bet stats need much clarification and probably a rewriting in my opinion.

I'll expand and offer suggestions after you confirm I understood correct (english aint my first language as you can probably guess:))

[TheZepper]

Hey -

3Bet% is the "Pct of time player raises (3Bets) preflop when facing single raised pot". A single raised pot occurs whenever there is only one raiser in the pot - there is no limit on the number of limpers. If there is a single raiser and a caller (and any limpers) in the pot, then the 3Bet is known as a Squeeze. So,

a) BTN raises vs 1 Limper - no 3Bet
b) BTN raises vs 2 Limpers - no 3Bet
a1) MP Limp-ReRaises
b1) MP Limp-ReRaises

Note: You can only 4Bet an opponent who 3Bets you. You can only 5Bet an opponent who has 4Bet you (after you 3Bet him after he Raised an Unraised pot). Think of the 3Bet/4Bet/5Bet etc scenario as a 2 man raising contest (with perhaps a caller or two in between).

b2) No 5Bets here. MP Limp-ReRaises, CO Limp-ReReRaises (we dont have a separate stat for this), and, unless he has AA or MP and CO are notoriously loose or seriously drunk, BTN should fold!

Same in HM1.

Please let me know what you think of the changes in the vs. 3Bet stats in the next build....

The Zepper

[Azalin]

Oh.. the misunderstanding occurred cause of the :

"3Bet vs Raiser and/or Limper(s) - 3Bet" sentence which should be perhaps:

"3bet vs Raiser (with or without limpers)". That means that the following:

1) MP limps, CO raises, BTN raises is a "BTN 3bet"
as is
2) UTG limps, MP limps, CO raises, BTN raises also a "BTN 3bet"

I am guessing that I finally got it right:) In that case...

MP limps, CO raises, BTN raises, MP folds, CO raises is a "CO 4bet" cause "you can only 4bet an opponent who 3bets you" and clearly the BTN 3bet CO.

Is this correct?

[TheZepper]

You got it.

I like the (with or without limpers) language better than "and/or Limper(s)" - I think it's clearer and easier for most players to understand.

One other frequently asked about sequence that we should cover:

MP limps, CO raises, BTN raises, SB raises ........

In HM2, this is known as SB Raises vs 2+ Raisers - its no longer referred to as an "Open 4Bet". Among the many reasons that we renamed the "Open 4Bet" stat "Raise vs 2+ Raisers" is to make it consistent with the "you can only 4bet an opponent who 3bets you" concept. Another, related reason for renaming the stat is to emphasize the fact that when a player Raises 2 or more Raisers in front of him, the dynamics of the situation is completely different from the typical 3Bet/4Bet/5Bet player vs player raising contest.

The Zepper