No stat changes in 12.06

[fash1k]

Hello,

You said that 1.12.06 version fixed river cbet in 3bet pot. This is not true. Yes, after reimport it is not 100% for all players but if you will apply this filter: "preflop 3bet = true, faced preflop 4bet = false, river cbet possible = true", you will find that in "reports" river cbet stat is different from that one which is in popup. So, one of them is wrong and this is one in popup.

Btw, why you tried to fix only river cbet in 3bet pot? Turn cbet in 3bet pot is not 100% as river cbet in 3bet pot in 12.06 ver, but it is not true too. You can check it by the same filter but with turn cbet = true (not river). Also, what about fold\call\raise on turn & river in 3bet pot? Those stats will be fixed?

Thank you.

[alllala]

OMG. I really believed you guys with your "fix". I can´t believe you didn´t check your own improvement. I so mad at me to have believed in your competence.
It´s fucking unbelievable, but now it´s official.

You guys suck hardcore.

Again, I have to tell you what causes the problem (although I don´t really want to anymore,but i depend to much on your crapy software):

If the Contibet is Raised on Turn or River in a 3Bet Pot (Playeraction of the Contibeter: BC,BF,BR - basically all the B+ Action), then the Formula for the Pop-up Hud (Continuation_bet.turn_three-bet_pot and Continuation_bet.river_three-bet_pot), count the one Contibet as if there were two. Therefore you can get stats that go over 100%. Therefore Turn and River CB in a 3Bet Pot is always >= reallity, which might let you believe that your enemy barrels all the time in 3Bet pots.

I really think to not buy HM2 and take a look into PT4

[alllala]

Well Continuation_bet.flop_three-bet_pot and Fold_CB_to_raise.flop_three-bet_pot have a bug, too.

When Hero did 4Bet Preflop and his CB is Raised then the Action will count for the three-bet_pot (at least for the Flop)

[Azalin]

Is that really the case? :(

Have you guys noticed any more stats that need a fix?

[alllala]

Is that really the case? :(

Have you guys noticed any more stats that need a fix?

So far:
Bet vs missed CB.total OOP
Bet vs missed CB.turn OOP
Bet vs missed CB.river OOP

Bet vs missed CB.total in pos
Bet vs missed CB.flop in pos
Bet vs missed CB.turn in pos
Bet vs missed CB.river in pos

Fold_vs_3b.EP.blind
Fold_vs_3b.EP.ip
Raise_vs_3b.EP.blind
Raise_vs_3b.EP.ip

Fold_vs_3b.MP.blind
Fold_vs_3b.MP.ip
Raise_vs_3b.MP.blind
Raise_vs_3b.MP.ip

Fold_vs_3b.CO.blind
Fold_vs_3b.CO.ip
Raise_vs_3b.CO.blind
Raise_vs_3b.CO.ip

Continuation_bet.flop_three-bet_pot
Continuation_bet.turn_three-bet_pot
Continuation_bet.river_three-bet_pot
Fold_CB_to_raise.flop_three-bet_pot

and thats only the ones I know of and have proof that they are wrong.

[Azalin]

omg

tell me it aint so.. I cannot imagine all those stats being wrong all this time. I use them (like everybody else) every day and if thats the case that has costed me a LOT of money.

I hope that a fix is released ASAP.

Have you provided the info about those wrong stats to HEM support?

[alllala]

Well as far as i know, these wrong stats are know for like two years. I believe they were "fixed" several times, but I only think to have read about.

Bet vs missed CB.total OOP
Bet vs missed CB.turn OOP
Bet vs missed CB.river OOP

Bet vs missed CB.total in pos
Bet vs missed CB.flop in pos
Bet vs missed CB.turn in pos
Bet vs missed CB.river in pos


The next stats I just pointed out some days ago and fix is said to be ready and we have just to wait for 12.07.
I used these Stats since i found the Active Player Details Window and they were wrong from the beginning of HM1 due to an error in the database Table they are build off. Here again i informed the HM-Team a year ago, with the latter information that it was fixed. Then two month ago, again in different topic i pointed out there was something wrong, but i only was told someone will look into it (but never happend). Only when I specifically showed what was wrong something happend - but we should wait if they have it really "fixed".

Fold_vs_3b.EP.blind
Fold_vs_3b.EP.ip
Raise_vs_3b.EP.blind
Raise_vs_3b.EP.ip

Fold_vs_3b.MP.blind
Fold_vs_3b.MP.ip
Raise_vs_3b.MP.blind
Raise_vs_3b.MP.ip

Fold_vs_3b.CO.blind
Fold_vs_3b.CO.ip
Raise_vs_3b.CO.blind
Raise_vs_3b.CO.ip


And for the following (which include new stats) are issues know for some months, but they have been fixed at least two time now, with great success :rolleyes:


Continuation_bet.flop_three-bet_pot
Continuation_bet.turn_three-bet_pot
Continuation_bet.river_three-bet_pot
Fold_CB_to_raise.flop_three-bet_pot



The deeper i go into the matter, the more I loose faith in any of the stats.

[Zografa]

wtf... is this real OP? i use all of the stats mentioned here a lot actually... so you are telling me i based my decisions on incorrect data for so long time... if this is real HEM team is responsible for like millions of dollars worth wrong decisions?

i think we deserve an answer from the dev. team here ASAP...

[fash1k]

"The best" thing is that I started this thread 2 days ago and there is no answer from HM support. So disappointing..

[Zografa]

this is something really big if its even 1/4 the way i see it... i mean.. so many important stats are wrong and can lead you into many wrong decisions and we dont even know what is really wrong and what is not... so i guess ill be using vpip/pfr and 3b only until i get a real answer here...

[Azalin]

I totally agree. Lets see whats the response from HEM support.

[Patvs]

allala emailed us some handhistories and we'll look into this.

A HUD stat (1), popup stat (2), report stat (3), and stat in the active player detail window (4) all have a separate formula entry into HoldemManager. This is why it's often discovered a report stat is accurate, but the HUD stat (for the exact same stat) is not.
Or a HUD stat is accurate but the popup stat displays an error, etc.

In addition a report stat may be accurate, but when adding specific FILTERS the filters filter out hands that should have been included in the report. (resulting in showing percentages in the reports that don't make sense)



As of now the HUD stats and popup stats for 99.5% of all stats should be accurate.
It will take some time to test all these stats again, to see if there is an error for those stats in the REPORTS, or in the reports-when-using-specific-filters.


Note: HM2 solves this entire issue, where 1 formula for 1 stat is used for ALL (reports/hud stats/reports )

[Zografa]

allala emailed us some handhistories and we'll look into this.

A HUD stat (1), popup stat (2), report stat (3), and stat in the active player detail window (4) all have a separate formula entry into HoldemManager. This is why it's often discovered a report stat is accurate, but the HUD stat (for the exact same stat) is not.
Or a HUD stat is accurate but the popup stat displays an error, etc.

In addition a report stat may be accurate, but when adding specific FILTERS the filters filter out hands that should have been included in the report. (resulting in showing percentages in the reports that don't make sense)



As of now the HUD stats and popup stats for 99.5% of all stats should be accurate.
It will take some time to test all these stats again, to see if there is an error for those stats in the REPORTS, or in the reports-when-using-specific-filters.


Note: HM2 solves this entire issue, where 1 formula for 1 stat is used for ALL (reports/hud stats/reports )


Ok but before telling us to buy your new product - fix the old one so i have reason to buy the new stuff... also there are problems that are with HEM1 for ages and you seem to not care at all...

[alllala]

Did you guys delete a Thread i started about the wrong vs missed CB stats?

[Patvs]

I didn't delete any threads, but did merge two of your new threads with existing threads.



Edit: and I deleted one post where you bumped an old thread, to confine all the current HUD stat issues into only one (recent) thread.

[Patvs]

http://forums.holdemmanager.com/manager-bugs/129371-continuation_bet-river_three-bet_pot-doesn-t-work-right-2.html

[alllala]

I didn't delete any threads, but did merge two of your new threads with existing threads.



Edit: and I deleted one post where you bumped an old thread, to confine all the current HUD stat issues into only one (recent) thread.

Well I thought to go crazy. Could you at least leave a note in the moved Post. I believed I posted it in wrong and restarted the Thread.
But your moving isn´t right anyway. My Thread about the "wrong vs Missed CB Stats" you moved in here will be lost under the headline "Continuation_bet.river_three-bet_pot doesn´t work right".

This really seems to me like censorship and is a sophisticated way to let as few people as possible read it.

[alllala]

I know you have enough trouble with HM2, so HM1 won´t be on your priority list. Hence I´m wondering what time frame we are talking about fixing stats that never worked from the start of the Product.

I mean these are not just some random stats we are talking about. They are the ones I build my play around.

Will this takes days, weeks or perhaps months?

[Patvs]

Most of these stats didn't exist at the start of the product.
They were added after this may 2011 thread: http://forums.holdemmanager.com/manager-general/51541-adding-new-stats-hm-soon-please-add-your-support-your-stats-7.html

With about 90 new stats added, there was some discussion of mistakes in the new stats (in july - august) but after many "fixes" that discussion died out.

I'll take a look personally at your email + the hands you emailed.
Timeframe for them to be fixed: best-case scenario: weeks
(because even if I forward a full report what needs to be fixed to a programmer tomorrow, other HM1/HM2 bugs will have a higher priority to be fixed first)

[alllala]

Ok I get it. We don´t have a guarantee for working new stats, because they were added as a coutresey after we bought HM1.
But I´m not sure that this argument als counts for the the Bets vs Missed Contibets stats. They are argued to be wrong for two years and several times they should have already been fixxed.

To be honest. Wouldn´t i have invested Hours of configuring HM1 and creating Custom Stat Reports and trying to understand your database structure, I´d already changed to PT3.

[Patvs]

I'm saying up until your recent post, we thought all the new stat bugs were already fixed.
(so either no player is actually using these stats, or you're the only player smart enough to realize they're being calculated wrong)

You started the debate with your october 4 thread: http://forums.holdemmanager.com/manager-bugs/129371-continuation_bet-river_three-bet_pot-doesn-t-work-right.html

If you look at post #7 I added "#2690".
I just looked up the bug ticket #2690 which talks about two things:

-1
Turn cb 3bet pot HUD stat - different in HUD compared to reports.
River cb 3bet pot HUD stat - different in HUD compared to reports.
Fold to river cb 3bet pot HUD stat - different in HUD compared to reports.

-2
Also these HUD Stats
Flop 3bet Pot CB
Fold to flop CB 3Bet Pot
Call flop CB 3Bet Pot
Raise flop CB 3Bet Pot
are including 4bet pots.


At the end of the bug ticket one HM programmer states the issue is fixed (and requires a reimport of the hands), and another programmer confirms it's fixed. And the ticked is closed.


A new ticket will be written up based on your last email with your handhistories.

[alllala]

I'm saying up until your recent post, we thought all the new stat bugs were already fixed.
(so either no player is actually using these stats, or you're the only player smart enough to realize they're being calculated wrong)

You started the debate with your october 4 thread: http://forums.holdemmanager.com/manager-bugs/129371-continuation_bet-river_three-bet_pot-doesn-t-work-right.html


..

I think the most users of HM1 trust your software and woulnd´t believe that so many stats are wrong. I myself have been one of them for a long time. But since I´m creating and working with custom Reports, I saw many little mistakes made in your Database. This is were my trust started to erode in the HM team.
And then sometime later i got suspicious that everybody seems to have a Contibet Value of 100% on the River in a 3Bet Pot. So I invested some time to the matter, to find out the fault. So I thought, well if that stat might be wrong. What else is? So, to my disbelieve I find more and more wrong stats:

Wrong old stats

Bet vs missed CB.total OOP
Bet vs missed CB.turn OOP
Bet vs missed CB.river OOP

Bet vs missed CB.total in pos
Bet vs missed CB.flop in pos
Bet vs missed CB.turn in pos
Bet vs missed CB.river in pos

Fold_vs_3b.EP.blind (all these vs. 3b Stats were feasible with the Playeraction details Window)
Fold_vs_3b.EP.ip
Raise_vs_3b.EP.blind
Raise_vs_3b.EP.ip
Call_vs_3b.EP.blind
Call_vs_3b.EP.ip

Fold_vs_3b.MP.blind
Fold_vs_3b.MP.ip
Raise_vs_3b.MP.blind
Raise_vs_3b.MP.ip
Call_vs_3b.MP.blind
Call_vs_3b.MP.ip

Fold_vs_3b.CO.blind
Fold_vs_3b.CO.ip
Raise_vs_3b.CO.blind
Raise_vs_3b.CO.ip
Call_vs_3b.CO.blind
Call_vs_3b.CO.ip

Continuation_bet.flop_three-bet_pot (this is not a new stats from this year)


New Stats that are wrong.

Continuation_bet.turn_three-bet_pot (should be fixed with 12.06 - but not)
Continuation_bet.river_three-bet_pot (should be fixed with 12.06 - but not)
Fold_CB_to_raise.flop_three-bet_pot

Fold_to_CB.river_three-bet_pot (seems fixed)
Raise_CB.river_three-bet_pot (seems fixed)




What really disappointed me was the fact that I trusted you guys that, if informed you fix the Problem with a faulty stat. But this thread is proof that even your fixes are bullshit. It seems you never tested your own improvement and tormented every User of HM1 with a useless reimport.


And now it seems. If some gives you an error description, you don´t even understand what the matter is.




-2
Also these HUD Stats
Flop 3bet Pot CB
Fold to flop CB 3Bet Pot
Call flop CB 3Bet Pot
Raise flop CB 3Bet Pot
are including 4bet pots.


..
Only Flop 3bet Pot CB and Raise flop CB 3Bet Pot are including 4bet Pots (as to mine knowledge), but only when the Contibeter is raised on the Flop. When there is no Raise neither of these are including 4bet Pots.

Edit: I made a mistake: Not Raise flop CB 3Bet Pot is including 4bet Range, it´s Fold_CB_to_raise.flop_three-bet_pot

[Patvs]

I've forwarded all the info directly to Roy Goncalves to look into this.

[alllala]

Edit: I made a mistake: Not Raise flop CB 3Bet Pot is including 4bet Range, it´s Fold_CB_to_raise.flop_three-bet_pot

[Daniel]

also errors in:

http://forums.holdemmanager.com/hud-general/98621-raise-limpers-stat.html

[Patvs]

Follow up:

(from internal email)



We have found the core part of the issue and it is in 4+bets

1) all of our HM1 3bet pot stats include 3bet or higher pots while
that user finding the problems was filtering just for 3bet pots.
4+bet pot stats would be added causing the difference he is seeing
2) we previously had a bug where 4+ bets would cause the position of
the 3bet to change to the position of the 4bet. This bug was recently
fixed but requires a reimport - this would affect all positional 3+bet
stats

HM1: we have to ensure that 3bet pots include 4bet and higher

We're still going through all these stats to make sure everything is 100% ok given the
info but this will be fixed as soon as possible.

[alllala]

We have found the core part of the issue and it is in 4+bets

1) all of our HM1 3bet pot stats include 3bet or higher pots while
that user finding the problems was filtering just for 3bet pots.
4+bet pot stats would be added causing the difference he is seeing


This isn´t True. 4+bet pot stats were only added to Flop CB 3B pot and Flop CB vs Raise 3B pot, when the Contibeter was Raised. If the Contibeter just got called 4+bet pots weren´t added at all to the 3bet pot stats. There is no such thing for Turn or River, but there is another error in the stats calculation for these streets. If the contibeter gets Raised on Turn or River in a 3bet pot, then the formula counts it as if there were 2 Contibets (which can lead to values bigger than 100%).

Furthermore you suggest that we were filtering wrong, and hence got difference in stats between Hud and Report. But i checked everytime the that the number of hands in the Hud and the number of hands in the Report were the same for the calculated stats, so there was no error in filtering (because it happend to me once)




HM1: we have to ensure that 3bet pots include 4bet and higher


What do you mean with that? You want to add 4+bet situations to the 3bet pot stats, or is it just a swindle because you can´t exclude all 4+bets pots from being added to these stats.
The 3bet pot stats should only include 3bet pot situations. Otherwise the stat looses it´s meaning.



We're still going through all these stats to make sure everything is 100% ok given the
info but this will be fixed as soon as possible.

With which priority are you checking your old work? This is just a cloudy statement that can mean anything. Is there really going someone through these stats? Or is it deep down a list of things, that have to be done in the far future?

And what about the vs missed Contibet issue? It´s totally fucked up, as there are counted all sorts of situations that shouldn´t be added. (And this stat is so fucking important)

Like:

Limped pots
Reraises or Calles of the contibeter to a Raise
Delayed contibets

Edit:
You are right. All the old 3bet pot stats include 3+bet pot situations. Only the new Turn and River CB 3bet pot only includes 3bet pot situations.

But now you want to change all the stats in 3+bet pot stats, so you don´t have to change them into 3bet pot stats?
But i want 3bet pot stats and not 3+bet pot stats.

[Patvs]

I've forwarded your post to Roy/Fred via email.

[StonedShisha]

first of all,
big thanks to user alllala who has taken the time to examine and analyse what we other grinders dont have time to analyse, and that we (unfortuanally) blindly trust from the holdemmanager develop team. Im gonna raise my hand and say that these faulty stats has with high probability cost me a lot of money as well.

Second I would like to say to Patvs answer about Holdemmanager2 being somewhat of a rescue. That the issues from HM1 will not excist in HM2 because the way the program is built (or whatever). Well let me tell you something about HM2. I have just used the end product for over a month now (I did also _try_ to use the alpha and the beta)- and let me tell you: Holdemmanager2 is an complete FAIL. It is a product sold that is NOT end-user ready yet. And judging by the timeframe we have seen for holdemmanager1 to become "ready" Im not even sure if HM2 will ever be a good program to use.
I mean I was really looking forward to just uninstall HM2 so I can get back to my HM1. And then you read this thread and realise that there is some real crucial problems with HM1 still... STILL... After this long time. And why isnt it fixed immediatly? Well because of HM2 FAIL project. So what the fck are we supposed to do..? We cannot use holdemmanager2 (nono forget it.. I aint trying that garbage ever again.. I'd rather to go some lowbuget tracker from some other company then trying HM2 within at leats 6 months). And now every problem with HM1 is on very low priority because of HM2...

Seriously just trash the entire HM2 fail project and focus on making HM1 a much better product instead... This is getting so messy that I dont think Im alone when Im hoping for PokerTracker4 to come rescue us from this CANCER software (reffering to a fail HM2 and a incomplete un-prioriated HM1)

[Patvs]

Read: http://forums.holdemmanager.com/feature-requests-feedback/132761-hm2-stat-requests-3091-a-2.html#post773481

In addition Roy writes:



This will be the plan

for HM1 we'll make 3bet pots = only 3bet pots instead of 3+bet pots

for HM2 we'll break it down into Limped, Single Raised, 3bet, 4bet and
5+bet pots - this will not require a reimport

[WhatAStupidQuestion]

Can I just suggest that when you do get round to fixing/changing these stats. Please make sure that they are still under the same name. Because otherwise, anyone with a manual HUD popup config is going to have to re-change everything.

[Bartolomeo6]

don't want to start new thread so I will write here...

Is it possible to make Multi Table stat (HM1) working in tournaments? I would like to use it only for myself to control how many tables I'm currently playing...

best regards

[Patvs]

Multi Table stat will only work for cashgames, as it's TableScanner that gets the information how many tables a player is playing during a scan.