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AJG
08-04-2009, 08:59 AM
How exactly is ROI calculated in HEM.
I was doing this manually before recently using HEM, and the figures are different...

I use: ROI = (Winnings - Buyins) / Buyins * 100
In this case I cite of 1 particular tournament from an online league, I get 6.83 and HEM say 106.8%???

Winnings: $102.24
Games: 29
Buyin: $3 + 30c

It seems HEM is adding 100???

netsrak
08-04-2009, 09:49 AM
I'll forward it to Fabio for an answer.

fozzy71
08-04-2009, 09:50 AM
I am a tourney noob, but I am pretty adept at math (or at least I was 20 years ago in High-School), so hopefully I am explaining this right. This is my laymen's understanding of ROI in HM.


You should not be multiplying your divisor (BuyIns) by 100


The return on investment formula:




(Gain Form Investment - Cost of Investment)
ROI = ---------------------------------------------------------
Cost of Investment




Your cost of investment was $95.70

That money is gone, and no longer your own.

Your return on that investment was $102.24

You got your entire investment back (100%) + the profits, for an ROI of >100%

AJG
08-05-2009, 04:40 AM
Well, thanks for the reply, but I will correct you on 1 thing. The formula i cited doesn't multiply the divisor, it multiplies the result of the division (multiplication and division have the same precedence, hence are simple performed left to right)
ie:


winnings - buyins
----------------- x 100
buyins

and you need to multiply by 100 to get a % figure...


OK, so by HEM ROI anythin < 100 is loosing money?

ROI should be standardised across all poker software imo...
Yet looking atound i see a number of formulae for it.

noap_
08-07-2009, 04:42 AM
I'd like to know how ROI is calculated in HM. Do you compute ROI with the real $$$, or do you compute ROI in buyins? E.g. I've paid 5 buyins, took 2 first places, other 3 SNGs out of the money. So ROI in this case would be (10-5)/5=100%

It differs whether $$$ or buyins are used, if you play different buyins simultaniously (as you haven't fixed it yet, that HM recognizes what buyin you are currently playing at. It takes all SNGs as $11 SNGs)

AJG
08-07-2009, 10:22 PM
Yes, that is the best I can figure HEM calculated ROI that anything < 100 is losing.
But the figures you cite should show an ROI of 200% as you have got back twice your investment.

in the above formula buyins is the total amount spens on buyining into tournaments, so if you have played 5 SnGs with a total buyin af $1 each, then yes this would be 5.
Everything is in total dollars...
Seems the real formula HEM uses is winnings / buyins x 100...

the $11 figure for buyins only refers to one site, which doesnt record the amount in the HH files, but other sites (PS, Tilt etc) do, so you dont need to enter the amount for those, although you can filter some out of the report.

Overall ROI is irrespective of buyin level if you buyin at diferent levels, it just totals your winnings, and you buyins and divides to two...

Hope this helps...

noap_
08-08-2009, 03:42 AM
I forgot to mention that I'm playing at a Casino in the ongame network, where HM doesn't recognize the different buyins.

netsrak
08-08-2009, 05:03 AM
I'll forward it to Fabio again...

DocM
08-08-2009, 12:50 PM
I've got an question about ROI calculation as well. It's a more general question. But since ya'll are such good at math, i think at least one of you probably knows this one:

If i want to know what my average ROI % per game should be if i want to make x amount of money with x amount of games to play. Lets say:


I play: $2.25 stakes STTSNG;
i want to play 600 games;
I want to make a profit of $750.


Is it elegible to say:

Over 600 $2.25 games i invest $1350 (2.25*600). So that is the total investment. What i want to make is $750,00. So how do we get that? -$1350 + ??payback?? = $750. Well: ($750--$1350)=$2100 payback. So we got to make a profit of $2100 in total. Here is the equasion:

ROI = [ ($2100 – $1350)/$1350)]*100 = 55%.
ROI = 55%

Only thing is that an ROI of 55% would be insane and fairly impossible imo :p :confused: lol

Thanks in advance :)

AJG
08-08-2009, 12:55 PM
Your math is correct, but in HEM this would show as ROI = 155%

DocM
08-08-2009, 01:40 PM
ok thanks. But an ROI of 55% (155% in HEM).. is that possible or impossible?


Now i want to make go even further and calculate how many times i should be in the money over those 600 games.

The payout structure is as following:

1st: $9
2nd: $5.40
3rd: 3.60
average is $6.

$750 / $6 = 125 times in the money. That is 125/600 = 20.8%
But this would be to simple. Cuz this means i got to be a 1st all those times. (the only way to get $6 out of a game is to get in 1st place)

So per place to get $750,00:

750 / 9 = 84 times;
750 / 5.40 = 139 times;
750 / 3.60 = 209 times.
average of this is 144 times. That equals ~24% of the total games.

Now get this: if i play the first 150 games ITM i would have it and lose the next 450, i'd be in dept :P so there's something fishy about this... :P

who can help me get some real numbers out of this or point out what i'm doing wrong here ... thanks^_^

AJG
08-08-2009, 01:42 PM
Ok, now Im really confuised how HEM calculates ROI.
I just bought into a tournament at a new buyin level (only 1 listed in the results tab) didnt cash, and it shows ROI = -100%.

Im no math idiot, and cant seem to work out how it can have 100+ for the results above, and -100 for this tourney level???

fozzy71
08-08-2009, 01:49 PM
I have asked Roy to come in here and answer your questions as well as correct any inaccuracies I may have made in my post.

AJG
08-08-2009, 02:17 PM
What's fishy there? makes sense if you cash the 1st 150, then dont for 450 you'll be down (unless you WIN 1st 150, then its probably close to break even) cos anything other than a win won't treble your buyin...

Rather than average the payout, perhaps use the 2nd place (avg of 1-2-3) payout, which gives you approx 23% ITM.

Also, even though this isnt a thread about SnG strategy, you either want to finish 3rd or 1st ITM. Meaning, once you're ITM, take a few more risks to build a winning stack... also pay increase is non-linear.
So, you could avereage 1st and 3rd and use that as your figure ($6.30)?

Or just say, Im going to aim for 25% ITM, then i'll acheive my goals :)

But your math/workings is on the ball mate...

As to whats possible (with ROI/ITM %s), that depends on how well you play, but one way to make this easier, is play on a site with less rake?

$2 buyin and 25c fee is high, 10% is usual, sometimes even 5% depending on stakes. Also the structures i find better at stars than fulltilt... (10min levels on stars, 6 on tilt??) although maybe you like the turbo's better, but they have them on stars also... although stars is > 10% at < $5 level, so...

if you play 10% fee games rather than 2.25s on tilt, over 600 games you'll save $30 in fees alone... and $5.50s on stars you only need 300 games to.

Also, maybe mixing in a few multi table SnGs, might help you along if you cash a few. Especially the double stack 90 man's on tilt... at $1.25 buyin i think its 22-23 for a win (and it also has 10 min levels)

Edit: thanks fozzy...

DocM
08-08-2009, 02:43 PM
Thanks for the answer AJG.
I'm not a forum guy (jet) so sry that it's not in the right spot. I thought about the math etc.. :)


Or just say, Im going to aim for 25% ITM, then i'll acheive my goals

I'll go for that. That makes most sense to me as well.

Bout the rake thing: You're right. It is a lot, but any stakes higher i can't afford just yet with my bankroll(i keep the 5% max rule for SNG's)

for pokerstars: i tried, but i didn't like it upthere. But that could have been caused by the fact that i didn't know a lot about poker back then :P Maybe i'll give it a go sometime again.


Also, maybe mixing in a few multi table SnGs, might help you along if you cash a few. Especially the double stack 90 man's on tilt... at $1.25 buyin i think its 22-23 for a win (and it also has 10 min levels)

These might not be a very bad idea to mix up with. i'll try 1/10 of my games.

Now i'll stop posting this and only talk HEM here :p

noap_
08-09-2009, 05:25 AM
Your math is correct, but in HEM this would show as ROI = 155%

That's not correct imo. "My" HM always shows something like 4 to 20%, not 104% to 120%. In DocMs example 55%.

leoslayer
08-09-2009, 10:34 PM
you are all wrong. take total winnings divide by number of games equals $ per game. take that number divide by buyin (including rake) gives roi

102/29= aprox 3.52 3.52/3.3 = aprox 106%

leoslayer
08-09-2009, 10:36 PM
ok thanks. But an ROI of 55% (155% in HEM).. is that possible or impossible?


Now i want to make go even further and calculate how many times i should be in the money over those 600 games.

The payout structure is as following:

1st: $9
2nd: $5.40
3rd: 3.60
average is $6.

$750 / $6 = 125 times in the money. That is 125/600 = 20.8%
But this would be to simple. Cuz this means i got to be a 1st all those times. (the only way to get $6 out of a game is to get in 1st place)

So per place to get $750,00:

750 / 9 = 84 times;
750 / 5.40 = 139 times;
750 / 3.60 = 209 times.
average of this is 144 times. That equals ~24% of the total games.

Now get this: if i play the first 150 games ITM i would have it and lose the next 450, i'd be in dept :P so there's something fishy about this... :P

who can help me get some real numbers out of this or point out what i'm doing wrong here ... thanks^_^

you are not including rake

Rvg72
08-10-2009, 02:23 AM
Total Profit/Loss
----------------
Total Buyins (include rake)

and then multiply this by 100% since it is a %


if you lose your $11 buyin and only play 1 tourney then

-11
----
11

-100%


if you are up $102.24 after playing 29 $3.30's then

$102.24
--------
95.7

= 106.8% ROI


Now notice I said "up". If your total winnings are 102.24 but you have paid $95.70 in entry fees then you are only up $6.54 so it would be

$6.54
------
95.7

= 6.8% ROI

Roy

noap_
08-10-2009, 04:08 AM
you are all wrong. take total winnings divide by number of games equals $ per game. take that number divide by buyin (including rake) gives roi

102/29= aprox 3.52 3.52/3.3 = aprox 106%

Have you ever played tourneys/SNGs? HM NEVER shows your calculated rate, it shows the 6%, as approved by Rvg72.