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View Full Version : 3bet pot stats, again



mixiesftw
08-31-2011, 06:00 PM
So read a few threads, didnt see these questions covered so hopefully this isnt a repeat question.

So trying to look at 3bet pot stats, was hoping to look at Turn CB, River CB in 3bet pots
in addtion to fold vs CB on flop, foldvCB turn, fold v CB river.
all stats for HEADSUP (BTN VS BB)

Turn CB 3bet pot
-This stat displays quantity "-"
-This situation has been seen and recorded
-Question: Is this intended to display stats for turn cbet when player is orginal 3bettor prelop and cbet turn?

River CB 3bet pot
-This stat displays quantity "-"
-Question: Is this intended to display stats for river cbet when player is orginal 3bettor prelop and cbet river?

Turn CB (oop)
-assuming this includes single and 3bet pots when player cbets flop, and cbets turn?

River CB (oop)
-same question as above, just for river?

Fold to river CB 3bet pot
- Is this % when player folds when facing river CB when preflop was 3bet?

Is there no Fold to Turn CB 3bet pot?

Using version 1.11.07b HM1

mixiesftw
08-31-2011, 06:17 PM
In addition,

say its a 3bet pot heads up, player A 3bets, player B calls. The 3better, player A checks. Now when player B bets this would be considered "Bet vs Missed Cbet IP" correct?

Now lets say the 3bettor, player A decides to check /call the flop, and then checks the turn. If player B elects to bet the turn is this considered a Cbet, a bet vs missed turn Cbet, or none of the above. If none of the above do any stats represent this situation?

mixiesftw
09-01-2011, 09:29 PM
in addition im trying to filter instances where a player could bet vs missed cb in position on the flop....assuming that neither players ever limp preflop, what instances are considered for this stat?

getting stats that dont match to what i get when i filter stats on my own.

olliepower
09-02-2011, 01:31 AM
I am querying some other mods who have more stats knowledge.

RDB
09-03-2011, 10:43 AM
FYI To use the new HUD stats after updating requires you to create a new database and reimport your hands.


Turn CB 3bet pot
-Question: Is this intended to display stats for turn cbet when player is orginal 3bettor prelop and cbet turn?

Yes. A turn cbet is only possible if the flop was cbet too.


River CB 3bet pot
-Question: Is this intended to display stats for river cbet when player is orginal 3bettor prelop and cbet river?

Yes. A river cbet is only possible if original raiser also cbet flop and turn.


Turn CB (oop)
-assuming this includes single and 3bet pots when player cbets flop, and cbets turn?

River CB (oop)
-same question as above, just for river?

Yes but only instances when PFR is out of position.


Fold to river CB 3bet pot
- Is this % when player folds when facing river CB when preflop was 3bet?

Yes.


Is there no Fold to Turn CB 3bet pot?

This stat is available in reports and HUD.


In addition, say its a 3bet pot heads up, player A 3bets, player B calls. The 3better, player A checks. Now when player B bets this would be considered "Bet vs Missed Cbet IP" correct?

Yes. This is a combined stat for all streets. The "Bet vs Missed Cbet IP" can happen on any street.


Now lets say the 3bettor, player A decides to check /call the flop, and then checks the turn. If player B elects to bet the turn is this considered a Cbet, a bet vs missed turn Cbet, or none of the above. If none of the above do any stats represent this situation?

It is none of the above. There is no specific stat for this scenario.


in addition im trying to filter instances where a player could bet vs missed cb in position on the flop....assuming that neither players ever limp preflop, what instances are considered for this stat?

Instances that are considered for this stat only occur when the preflop raiser does not cbet out of position.

Quisto
09-04-2011, 12:21 AM
Hey RDB!

Do you have a link to a somwhere that say what new stats where added to the HHUD.
And how to get them to work, like reimporting the hands to a new DB etc?
Im not too high on that stuff....

Cheers!

:)

Sarek
09-04-2011, 05:14 AM
http://forums.holdemmanager.com/releases/119461-1-12-01-official-release.html
http://forums.holdemmanager.com/releases/97801-1-11-07-official-release.html

fash1k
09-06-2011, 12:37 PM
1.12.01 ver, new db, turn & river cbet in 3bet pot shows something now (not "--" as in 07b ver) but those stats are wrong.
Turn cbet shows different numbers but in reports if I add this stat, it is not the same. River cbet in 3bet pot shows 100% for all players who ever was on river in 3bet pot, if not then HUD shows "--".
Am I alone with this problem?

RDB
09-07-2011, 09:29 AM
Please zip and mail the original handhistory files (you find them in the HM archive folder or in the handhistory folder of your poker client) together with a link to this thread and an explanation of the problem to support@holdemmanager.net. We will then try to reproduce the problem.

Timooo
09-07-2011, 06:08 PM
1.12.01 ver, new db, turn & river cbet in 3bet pot shows something now (not "--" as in 07b ver) but those stats are wrong.
Turn cbet shows different numbers but in reports if I add this stat, it is not the same. River cbet in 3bet pot shows 100% for all players who ever was on river in 3bet pot, if not then HUD shows "--".
Am I alone with this problem?

He is absolutly right with regards to the river CB 3b pot stat. It shows ALWAYS for EVERY player in different databases either "-" or "100"%!!! Please post here if you will fix it soon because if not I will delete these WRONG stats.
With all respect, I made my own stats with PT3 and I know it cant be so difficult to implement RIGHT stats. So many stats are wrong (raise-limper-OTB etc). I am really disappointed because its not so hard to do it right! Finally I wouldnt recommend HM to my friends anymore because it just costs money if you trust these stats. There are so many wrong. I opened a thread with wrong stats for limper-raiser but nobody checked it out although it would be very easy.

RDB
09-07-2011, 07:03 PM
I opened a thread with wrong stats for limper-raiser but nobody checked it out although it would be very easy.

I have had a look the thread you are referring to and can confirm that the issue with the raise limpers stat has already been verified and forwarded for a fix.

Timooo
09-07-2011, 10:15 PM
I have had a look the thread you are referring to and can confirm that the issue with the raise limpers stat has already been verified and forwarded for a fix.
Thank you! Please try to fix this issue here as well, I would appreciate it a lot because the Turn Cbet stat in 3bet pots is one of the most important stats in poker at all...

RDB
09-08-2011, 09:57 AM
Thank you! Please try to fix this issue here as well, I would appreciate it a lot because the Turn Cbet stat in 3bet pots is one of the most important stats in poker at all...

This has now also been verified and forwarded for a fix along with the river cb 3bet pot issue.

ahnooln
09-08-2011, 01:15 PM
I'd like to second Timooo's disappointment and frustration with the fact that so many stats don't work as they are supposed to. Here's a list of other stats that don't work properly:

unopened preflop BB raise first
BB VPIP unopened
Bet turn vs missed CB ip
Bet turn vs missed CB oop
Bet river vs missed CB ip
Bet river vs missed CB oop

I'm not sure about 6max, but they don't work for HUHU. The missed CB stats I know for a fact have been broken for many years. For a long time they showed miniscule sample sizes even for players with a large number of hands. Now the problem with them is that in addition to proper missed CB situations they include some other situations (such as, for example, a player c/r's the flop then fails to bet the turn and the other player bets - that's not a proper missed CB scenario, according to how your own developers defined CB's in other threads).

Out of all the programming challenges in creating your product getting the SQL queries right for the stats is probably one of the most trivial, it also greatly affects how much we the users can rely on your product. It is surprising and frustrating that you don't properly test the stats that you create while advertising how many new stats you have added.

Timooo
09-08-2011, 04:04 PM
I'd like to second Timooo's disappointment and frustration with the fact that so many stats don't work as they are supposed to. Here's a list of other stats that don't work properly:

unopened preflop BB raise first
BB VPIP unopened
Bet turn vs missed CB ip
Bet turn vs missed CB oop
Bet river vs missed CB ip
Bet river vs missed CB oop

I'm not sure about 6max, but they don't work for HUHU. The missed CB stats I know for a fact have been broken for many years. For a long time they showed miniscule sample sizes even for players with a large number of hands. Now the problem with them is that in addition to proper missed CB situations they include some other situations (such as, for example, a player c/r's the flop then fails to bet the turn and the other player bets - that's not a proper missed CB scenario, according to how your own developers defined CB's in other threads).

Out of all the programming challenges in creating your product getting the SQL queries right for the stats is probably one of the most trivial, it also greatly affects how much we the users can rely on your product. It is surprising and frustrating that you don't properly test the stats that you create while advertising how many new stats you have added.

Ty! I play a lot of HU as well and have used these stats because I havent known that they are incorrect. I use especially the VS_NO_CBET_OOP stat. Is it very incorrect or just a small difference? Thank you!

ahnooln
09-09-2011, 03:35 PM
Ty! I play a lot of HU as well and have used these stats because I havent known that they are incorrect. I use especially the VS_NO_CBET_OOP stat. Is it very incorrect or just a small difference? Thank you!

I think it's very incorrect. I decided to do some digging so I can give you a concrete example. I found a player who I only played 30 hands with. I then filtered out hands where he was in the SB (and therefore in position in HUHU). There are 4 hands where he limps preflop, I then raise and CB the flop but don't CB the turn. In 1 of these 4 cases he bets the turn, and the Bet vs Missed Turn CB ip stat indeed shows 25% (4). So far great!

Now I look at the Bet vs Missed Flop CB ip stat. It shows 33% (3). However, there aren't 3 hands where I miss a flop CB, in fact there are none. There are 3 hands where I check the flop and in 1 of them he indeed bets, but those hands have nothing to do with a missed flop CB situation: in one of them he raises preflop in SB, I check the flop and he checks behind. In the other
two hands he limps pf, I check, then check the flop as well and he then bets in one hand and checks in the other.

So this particular stat is completely messed up. But don't be too happy about the first stat either, because for that particular player there were no situations where I c/r the flop and then donk-check the turn or any other similar scenarios, so we don't know which ones of these would incorrectly count towards that stat. I do remember that when I play and the hands are imported one by one, some incorrect scenarios do count.

I didn't really want to spend more time researching all the missed CB stats, searching for players, manually counting hands, etc. But I don't think I need to, the work I already did clearly shows that the missed CB stats are wrong. In my humble view they need to be fixed ASAP, because anybody who has relied on those stats to make delicate check/bet decisions with marginal hands (or hands contemplating a c/r) have been consistently losing money on incorrect decisions.

Timooo
09-10-2011, 11:45 AM
Thank you very much for researching and explaining. Like I said before I have worked with this stat and I dont wanna know how much money I lost because of this incorrectness....

ahnooln
09-10-2011, 12:18 PM
Thank you very much for researching and explaining. Like I said before I have worked with this stat and I dont wanna know how much money I lost because of this incorrectness....

I just did another quick query. I found a player who I've played 193 hands with HUHU. HUD shows that his Bet Turn OOP after missed CB is 67% with a sample size of 33. The only situation that this stat is supposed to be responsible for is if I raise in SB (or cap), then check the flop leaving him with a choice of betting or checking the turn OOP. So I did a filter: set his position to be BB and filtered for his actions on the flop leaving only Check. HEM returned only 9 hands satisfying these criteria, so it's not at all clear where the sample size of 33 came from.

Based on this analysis alone that stat consists of about 72% noise mixed in with 28% of situations satisfying its description.

Patvs
09-10-2011, 06:40 PM
Please update to the latest version - http://www.holdemmanager.com/Downloads/HmUpdate.exe to 1.12.02

ahnooln
09-10-2011, 09:34 PM
Please update to the latest version - http://www.holdemmanager.com/Downloads/HmUpdate.exe to 1.12.02

Could you please confirm or deny that the stats we are talking about in this thread have been fixed in this release. It seems from the description in the dialog that pops up when you run the install that they haven't. It would be a waste of time and a frustrating experience for anybody to reimport all their hands only to find that these stats haven't actually been fixed.

EDIT: Just to make sure we are all on the same page, the stats discussed here, in addition to the 3bet pot CB stats are:

unopened preflop BB raise first
BB VPIP unopened
Bet turn vs missed CB ip
Bet turn vs missed CB oop
Bet river vs missed CB ip
Bet river vs missed CB oop

joeppiej
09-11-2011, 11:01 AM
updated to newest version but still doesn't work for me.

The stat shows river cbet in 3b pot = 100% for all players while I know for shure it's not true.

turn cb in 3b pot seems to work fine.

ahnooln
09-11-2011, 11:40 AM
updated to newest version but still doesn't work for me.

The stat shows river cbet in 3b pot = 100% for all players while I know for shure it's not true.

turn cb in 3b pot seems to work fine.

I think for an updated stat to work you have to reimport all your hands into a new database. If I understand correctly, from the dialog that's displayed when you run the install it seems that stat you are asking about is fixed, so maybe if you reimport all your hands everything will be fine.

However, all the stats I listed don't seem to be fixed, based on that dialog. I hoping a developer can confirm or deny this, so that I know whether or not it's futile for me to reimport all my hands.

Patvs
09-11-2011, 04:46 PM
Reimport your hands into a new database.


"Fold to flop CB (ip)", "Fold to flop CB (oop)"
turn CB ip
turn CB oop
river CB ip
river CB oop
etc. all work fine for me.


BB raise first & BB VPIP unopened don't work, because it's not possible for the BB to OPEN RAISE.

Still ongoing issue: raise 1th / raise limpers resulting in the same %, and 5bet range and 4bet range. This will be fixed in a later update.

ahnooln
09-11-2011, 07:48 PM
The turn/river CB stats work fine for me too, but I think you misunderstood what stats we are talking about, here's the list again:

Bet turn vs missed CB ip
Bet turn vs missed CB oop
Bet river vs missed CB ip
Bet river vs missed CB oop

If you actually meant these stats in your post, they definitely don't work - I've given specific examples in my previous posts and it's easy to verify with filters. As for the first two stats: preflop BB raise first and BB VPIP unopened, I understand your point, I misinterpreted "raise first" and "unopened" to mean "if nobody raised yet", but that's incorrect. I'll check if the VPIP in BB with 1 limper works some time later, but I (and others such as Timooo) care more about the missed CB stats right now, since those are stats that a lot of players might want to use and right now they are giving incorrect values without most players realizing it.

Could you confirm that you will put those stats on the agenda to be fixed in a future release?

ahnooln
09-12-2011, 02:53 PM
Meanwhile, I did another query to test specifically the Bet Turn vs Missed CB ip stat. I found a player with a few thousand hands HUHU, then filtered for:
-position: SB
-preflop action: Call Call OR Raise Call
-flop action: Call
-turn action: Check OR Bet OR Bet Call OR .... (selected all Bet [anything])

It returned 40 hands, but HUD shows a sample of 45.

I checked that no BvB hands contributed to anything. Therefore that stat is broken too. I wasn't able to determine which specific situations added the extra 5 hands.

EDIT: I also just tested the Bet River vs Missed CB ip stat. I found out that the following scenario contributes to the stat: player in SB raises, on the flop opponent in BB donks, player calls, on the turn BB bets, player calls, on the river BB checks. Donking is not a CB (other stats don't count it as such), therefore this situation should not be there. Probably similar situations contribute to the Bet Turn vs Missed CB ip stat as well, but adding those only increases the sample size to 44, so I'm unable to determine what other incorrect scenarios contribute.

Patvs
09-12-2011, 08:03 PM
We're aware of this issue.
Bugticket is #2720. (ask us to check the status of this bug number if it's not fixed in the next update)

Timooo
09-13-2011, 02:20 PM
Helo, I updated HM, exported and imported all HHs into a new database but the River Cbet stat in 3bet pots still only shows either 100% or "-". Can anybody verify this? Shouldnt it have been fixed by the update? The turn cbet stat in 3bet pots is still wrong as well, I guess.

Patvs
09-13-2011, 05:38 PM
It's still an open ticket.
Should be fixed in the next update (1.12.04 or 1.12.05)

And it won't require a reimport of your hands.

Timooo
09-13-2011, 06:06 PM
Thank you!