HM2 disappoints

[Mercadiator]

First of all, I've been wondering whether I should post this on the forum or not, but I've decided to do it anyway.

I'm going to move to PokerTracker 4.
I used to really love Holdem Manager and I tried both trials, and Holdem Manager received my thumbs up and I was very happy with the software.
But, with Holdem Manager 2 BETA, you actually destroyed everything I liked about Holdem Manager.

HUD-wise, I still believe that PT's HUD is better but if you want to do thorough analysis, and work on your game, Holdem Manager was miles ahead. The interface to work in was just perfectly suited to do this kind of stuff.

So what I don't understand is, how you've managed to fuck up something that wasn't broken.
Let's start off with a couple of examples:

Session reviewing:

My session review in Holdem Manager 1:
Cash games - Sessions
I can see with a blink of an eye how my recent sessions went, the sessions are color coded in either Green or Red.
I see USD / hr, my VPIP% of the session, and a dozen other stats, which I can easily order.
And at the bottom of that table, I get the sums of these sessions to give me even more insight.
Then, when I click one of these sessions, I instantly get a list of all the hands I played in that particular session. It's just perfect!

Holdem Manager 2:
In Holdem Manager 2 however, you managed to remove all of that good stuff, and the only thing that's left is a small drop down list at the top of the page that lists all of my sessions, showing DATE HOUR (xxx hands)
Seriously, what was the person thinking who was redesigning this stuff?

I'm wondering: Has there actually ever been people who complained about how this stuff worked in HM 1 ?
Because honoustly, I haven't seen any complaints about it, which means it wasn't broken.
It would've been much better if you would've build further upon that idea and expand it, rather than completely destroying it.


The Menu ( less important, but still ):

I didn't like PT3's tabbed menu.
I much more preferred the way that HEM handled things: a typical menu that drops down and gives you options and you go to wherever you like ==> very intuitive.

The guys at PokerTracker have realized that this was a better way to handle things. I guess that they've learned this from HEM. In their new PT4 version, it seems that they've stepped away from their tabbed menus and have moved to drop down menus as well. Good decision.

Holdem Manager... What were you thinking? This time, in HM2, you are the guys that stepped away from drop-down menus and moved to tabbed menus.
Again, what were you thinking? I don't even...
You do something great, you make your rivals jealous, and they implement your idea.
And in the mean time, you take over their bad idea.
Tell me, who told you that your previous menu-system was bad? I don't believe anyone did, I just can't believe that.

Either 2 things have happened:
1) You have fired your previous UI designer for no reason, and hired some cheap ass inexperienced one who wants to try to proof himself.

Or

2) You still have the same UI designer, who simply felt uncertain about himself and who didn't believe that he actually did a good job in the first version.



Conclusion:

I'm guessing that you guys have put a lot of time in redesigning this, and therefore I doubt that you are ever going to reverse this.
That's the main reason why I didn't want to bother to post about it.
But then again, I thought, I've been using HEM for a long time and I've been very happy, and I can at least give some good clear reason on why I'm disappointed with this new version, instead of me just disappearing without any feedback.

Then again, this might be just my own awkward views of things and others might not agree with me.
The only way to find that out, is to wait and see what the replies are going to be in this topic.


EDIT: please read follow up at post #7

[fozzy71]

Thank you for the feedback. I will reply to you via PM and provide you with a contact email to discuss these issues.

[BlackSaphire]

I only write since it seems to me that OP is looking for constructive confrontation, if I'm mistaken please delete this.

Mercadiator, I just wanted to give you my POV: I've been using HEM for as long as I care to remember both to review my game and to coach and do Leak-finding sessions with my students.

I sure do agree with you that at first impact I've had the same impression... where's all that perfect stuff?

It's still there, only much more in depth and maybe not so easy to find at first ;)

Session Review
If you go on Reports / Cash and look at the "Sessions" Report you'll find exactly what you were used to find under Cash-game / Sessions in HEM1.
Only difference is that is not the whole line of a session that is color coded, but only the numbers for $, bb/100, $ (EV adj)... pretty visible as well, if not as clear as HEM1.

By clicking on the "More Reports" Icon in the "too-much-MS-lookalike" menu, you can add or remove tabbed reports.
By clicking on any white area in the Report area, you can add a number of Stats unheard of in HEM1.

I find it very useful to have the Replayer already visible in the right area, right side by side with the hand list... a hand that could look like it has to be studied in depth reveals imediately if it's a cooler or something not worthy of further attention.

Tabbed Menu
I agree with you in theory, but the speed at which HEM2 works is such that it's like having all the reports you need ready a single click away.

I may be biased here since I've transitioned at the same time from HEM1 to HEM2 and from a normal HD to a Solid State one...

All in all it's nothing more than a couple of day of using it for the tabbed reports to become a habit.

HEM vs PT
I have a license of PT too, bought when it worked on Rush Tables while HEM had some hiccups.

In terms of speed and accuracy, my take on the HUDs is the following
HEM1 < PT3 <<< HEM2

Moreover, I've always found HEM HUD extremely easier and faster to customize than PT.

I'll have to get PT4 to write a review for the Forum I admin and to be able to help those of my users who will choose it... obv I might have to reassess my evaluation benchmarking PT4 vs HEM2, but for example having access to the HUD customization directly from the tables with a single click (ok... three clicks) is a great leap forward.
Some night ago I was able to customize a couple of PopUps while playing 6xMTTs and 4xCash... I'd sure never attempt this with the former versions of any SW.

There's no conclusion, since this is just a "chat among grinders"... maybe just a word of advise: give HEM2 an open minded try, you'll be surprised.

[Not Excessive]

If I may be permitted to add a few comments, most of which would agree with both posters. There are some things about HM2 that are driving me absolutely nuts and precluding me from advancing with HM2.

It normally doesn't take me long to pick up new software and make it sing, but HM2 just doesn't have that "I need to go here to do this" feel. First impressions of software are very important for user acceptance and in the case of HM2 I feel the developers have unnecessarily complicated matters.

I would like to say PT3 < HM < HM2, but for my specific requirements that would not be true. However, even with its faults I think HM2 is about to overtake HM1. And that's got to be a good thing, right?

None of the problems I see in HM2 are hugely important. What is important for me, is how the developers address user criticisms/suggestions from customers. In that regard I hope that HM2 really is better than HM1.

[iksmirp]

There are at least 4 threads titles My feedback and suggestions. Why isn't there only one where I could write only one single question I have at the moment. Instead of making a new topic, I will ask it here.

How does HEM2 handle multi currency? Only stores currency rates in one table and ForeignKeys it to the hand record like in HEM1 or do you keep currency rate stored in a Hand table?

[SuperSized]

I have to add my two cents too. I'm thinking a lot about heading over to a competitor as there are a lot of things not working or implemented for tourney players. I'm feeling pretty unloved as a tourney player

The list of things

- HUD tourney filters still don't work

- Tourney filters still don't display in the filter bar.

- No live tracking, so using M or # BBs in HUD is pretty well useless. If these guys LongHUD (http://pete.priv.at/poker/) can do it efficiently, so can you

- No way to easily build ranges for your opponents based on M or #BB and position. I have to work-around this by making an alias with all players, using filters and doing it that way except....

- M orbit filter doesn't work (ok, this is a new bug), which brings me around to the next point.

- Who on earth though it would be useful to include 'effective stack size' in chips and not give us the option of using # BBs? STT guys do not think or care about # chips.

- While you are at it, please add an option to filter by only stack size and not effective stack size.

Honestly, these are all basic things I thought would already be options.

Cosmetically

- Please put the remove button and add button for filters together. I'm continuously confused by the fact they are apart. Also, what is wrong with an apply button? I always forget to hit the '+' button and have to go back and redo the filters. I'm probably not the only one and an apply button just seems more intuitive. Functionality over form please!

- I think the tabs are ok, but please add an option to remove them easily. Also please add an option to stop that ridiculous rotation of the tabs when I click one on the button row. I have always found that extremely annoying.

[Mercadiator]

Here's an update regarding my issues with HM2:

1)
First of all, about my comments on Session reviewing:

BlackSaphire has pointed out correctly that this has been moved to Reports / Cash.
I've never used the "Reports" part in HM1 and therefore I've not checked it in HM2 either. That's how I've not seen that it was moved to that place.
This is a great relief to me since this was my favorite part and now it seems it's still available!


2)
About the tabbed stuff.
I might have been a little bit too fast with jumping conclusions. It's probably indeed a habit that you need to get used to.


Right now I can only give my first impressions and it's probably going to be a very difficult decision to choose between the 2. We'll have to wait and see what happens in the next couple of months and see what the guys at PT4 will be able to come up with.


When I started this topic, I was way too disappointed with the fact that my favorite part seemed to be removed, so I've probably been a bit too harsh, sorry for that :)


On a final note, I do want to iterate that HM2 can still win the competition IF they would provide much more interesting functionalities for the HUD.
And then I'm talking about providing the player with the possibility of playing around with the stats in more ingenious ways. This is: the ability to merge the provided stats into new ( ratio-like ) stats at will.


To be continued...

[udbrky]

User-compiled stats are being worked on

[iksmirp]

How about multi currency? How is that being handled?

[fozzy71]

There are at least 4 threads titles My feedback and suggestions. Why isn't there only one where I could write only one single question I have at the moment. Instead of making a new topic, I will ask it here.

How does HEM2 handle multi currency? Only stores currency rates in one table and ForeignKeys it to the hand record like in HEM1 or do you keep currency rate stored in a Hand table?


How about multi currency? How is that being handled?

I can't answer the specific questions in your first post without asking a developer to respond. The DB Schema in HM2 is all new so I would expect it is handled differently/better than HM1. I can tell you that they are working on Tourney Multi-Currency support, which is something HM1 lacked.

[udbrky]

There are stats you can add for each currency - $, euro, pound, sek

[shahrad]

I have been testing HM2 since the beginning of Alpha. The HUD colors and handling is horrible. I really miss HM1 HUD. And also the other functions: everything is so overloaded, but this could one handle if it were neatly arranged but it is not. It seems some guys did sit there and said, this we put there, and this we put over there, and this we add here and this we add there and all of this without a real plan.
Another example: the Hud Pop UP designer. Good ideas and functions, probably, but it looks so ugly and complicated, that I did around 10 times want to sit and design one, but as ugly and complicated it did look, I didn't do it.
I mean, I am 40 years old, I did had atari and commodore. When I used PC's some of you might have not been yet born, but this is the first software, that I really dislike.

[SuperSized]

You can use the colour picker to choose whatever colours you like for the HUD :)

[udbrky]

What do you miss in the HM1 HUD that's not there? It's so much faster to set up your HUD colors. We are working on the possibility of custom default colors. Popups are so much easier and quicker to make. I don't see how you can say 2 is harder to make. You can import your popups from 1 as well.

When you make a popup in 2, you can see what stats are where easily, in 1, you had to decipher some abbreviations, guess how it would look, then look at it in the replayer. Now, they take 1/3 as long.

OK, once the grid is added back in.

Pretty sure that most of us working on HM2 aren't that much younger. Software changes over time, sometimes at first it's harder to remember where things are. I know Office 07 was like that for me, but now I can't remember how the older versions were. HM1 was vastly different from PT2. At first you don't know where things are.

There also might be a setting in the future to go back to a more HM1-like view.

[johncc]

I have also been using this since Alpha started.

Firstly I am a bit shocked at someone saying the POP Up designer is difficult, it's probably the easiest thing to do on HM2

I am always being told it is a lot faster than HM1, well that's news to me as it takes forever to do anything and even longer to find what you are looking for.

Why oh why is table manager hidden away under sessions? I have no idea.

Try adding some stats to the reports tabs, It takes a miracle to type in the correct wording to find them, if you don't think so try adding your favourites, you will be shocked at how difficult it is to locate the correct ones. Go on type in something simple like raise cbet

It's still so resource hungry, but i believe this is still being worked on, I just clicked on reports tab and it took 27 seconds to open.

Tbh the only real thing i like is NC, when it works because i see no need for most of the rest and all i will ever use is the HUD at the moment because it's impossible to review a days play, replay a bunch of hands is a nightmare.

In sessions there appears to be a scanner, that does nothing at the moment.

IMO it's probably still at the alpha stage, but hopefully the programmers will eventually get there

[shahrad]

I tried today for the first time making a pop up. OK, I was really wrong, it is really nice how it works.

[johncc]

It's also great that they are quick to amend even if playing live

I made loads in HM1 but this version kills HM pop ups easily

[BlackSaphire]

Oh... and BTW... never saw with HEM1 a DB reimported from scratch at 197,6 hands/sec ;)

[Patvs]

I mean, I am 40 years old, I did had atari and commodore. When I used PC's some of you might have not been yet born, but this is the first software, that I really dislike.



I know Office 07 was like that for me, but now I can't remember how the older versions were. HM1 was vastly different from PT2. At first you don't know where things are.

There also might be a setting in the future to go back to a more HM1-like view.


Lol. I still use Microsoft Office 2003! Because I can't stand the Office 2010 interface... with it widgets and...
I used Windows XP for nearly 10 years, and completely *proudly* managed to avoid Vista.
I can fully understand some of the initial responses to the HM2 interface.

You can almost compare HM1 to Windows XP (with Service Pack 3 installed!). It may still appear to be better than Windows 7... but it really isn't. HM2 will definitely get a UI (interface) tweaking/update (like being able to hide the replayer window, so it looks less cluttered) along the way. So did HM1 get many UI improvements over the years.

Rumor has it... even Vista (when you would turn off User Account Control) and you'd have it updated to Service Pack 2 actually wasn't that bad!

The important thing is the HM1 program engine -after 5 years- really is outdated. When the bugs are fixed and HM2 is released, you'll see that HM2 simply has a more powerful engine, allowing for much more possibilities and future features.

[bpetex]

I agree with OP. The only new thing i really liked in HM2 is the hud popup. Is there any chance that in the near future HM1 popup will be updated ?

[Patvs]

It's unlikely HM2 features--> will find its way to HM1.
But let us know of any feature that you think was better in HM1, or is completely missing in HM2.

[stusmokes]

is it possible to add a function to HM2, somehow heighten the marked hand? just when mark a hand put a sign near the hand or something. another thing what i thing this is the most important that please add HUD to replayer when its not expanded.
please add a stronger line into graphs to the zeroline. and add a button what can hide the bar where is the cash tounament settings hud option etc to get mire space for the replayer graphs and reports list. btw i love HM2 nice job guys!

[udbrky]

We are working on some ideas for this

[stusmokes]

what do you think what time u finished and release a new version of HM2?

[udbrky]

It depends on a few things that are being tested.

[stusmokes]

hi! how can i fast up HM2? i use ssd and have a very small database (because its new). i did all the steps in HM FAQ how to fast up win7 HM postgres etc... but HM2 is so much slower now than was the HM. and it slows down the PS too

[udbrky]

There should be a lot of changes in the next version.

[Jibi]

Hello. I have a question ! What can we do if we don't want to use HM2 ? Can we still use HM1 ? Because I tried HM2 beta since 2 weeks now and I really don't like it. I just want to know if I could keep using HM1 !!

[Patvs]

You can continue to use HM1. HM1 will continue to get basic support for some time after the release of HM2.
Note: once HM2 is officially released it won't be possible to purchase HM1 anymore.

I'm sure after continuing to use HM1 for 3-6 months AFTER the release of HM2, by that time HM2 will have won you over with its new features.

[stusmokes]

hi another idea. i think poker players needs a built in equity/range calculator in HM2 like in PT4. is it a possible feature?

[Patvs]

This already is possible in HM1: right click on a hand and pick open in hand range tool.

HM2 will get an updated version of this.