Article 5 - Discussion

[Al1]

Hi,

Great work dudes!

Can you please developpe a little your concepts in the "To 3bet or Not To 3bet" section.

You say that 3betting a TAG who attempts to steal with a high fold to 3bet with Pocket 44s is good because you can induce folds from better hands (55-TT) and also hands like AJ, KQ, AT. Can you just explain me another time the reason to induce folds from AJ... (not a trap!)

And with pairs like 99 in the same situation, and suited connectors?

Thx

[morny]

I cant think of another situation where id like to fold AJ by 3betting unless ive air or garbage and its really dependant on the how he reacts to 3bets but id like to hear your suggestion, the basic Theory is that you want him to fold out better hands in the case where your 3betting small pocket pairs, another reason is calling with small pocket pairs isnt going to be profitable OOP postflop as it can lead to difficult situations. Youll find alot of TAGs will fold small PP against good TAG's in this situation, 3betting is also another option if they fold alot however against someone that calls 3bets alot i wouldnt be too keen to 3bet a small PP especially if theyre unpredictable post flop in 3bet pots.

If ive 99 in that situation things change, 3betting now would almost turn my hand into a bluff as hes likely to fold 88 or worse and s/c etc, against AJ theres almost no difference between 44 and 99 but well never be able to narrow a range to just AJ so my 99 would play well against hes range in most cases where i can call and let him double barrell air, draws and weaker pairs.

Suited connectors are fine for 3betting in these scenario's, your obviously 3betting blufffing with the hope to hit a good flop if he does call and a fold here is always a good result, you could call occasionally if you feel you can outplay him with aggression postflop but be careful that if your calling here with s/c and PP's then your range is pretty narrow and its easy for a thinking TAG to double barrell on any board T or higher and when you do play back hell know youve a set or a big draw most of the time and its just not profitable to be putting yourself in these difficult situations.

With all these things the variables involved are extremely important, how often he 4bets, what hes like post flop, your image etc can all turn a standard situation into a completely different one. IMO i should add

[Al1]

Originally Posted by morny

I cant think of another situation where id like to fold AJ by 3betting unless ive air or garbage and its really dependant on the how he reacts to 3bets but id like to hear your suggestion, the basic Theory is that you want him to fold out better hands in the case where your 3betting small pocket pairs, another reason is calling with small pocket pairs isnt going to be profitable OOP postflop as it can lead to difficult situations. Youll find alot of TAGs will fold small PP against good TAG's in this situation, 3betting is also another option if they fold alot however against someone that calls 3bets alot i wouldnt be too keen to 3bet a small PP especially if theyre unpredictable post flop in 3bet pots.

If ive 99 in that situation things change, 3betting now would almost turn my hand into a bluff as hes likely to fold 88 or worse and s/c etc, against AJ theres almost no difference between 44 and 99 but well never be able to narrow a range to just AJ so my 99 would play well against hes range in most cases where i can call and let him double barrell air, draws and weaker pairs.

Suited connectors are fine for 3betting in these scenario's, your obviously 3betting blufffing with the hope to hit a good flop if he does call and a fold here is always a good result, you could call occasionally if you feel you can outplay him with aggression postflop but be careful that if your calling here with s/c and PP's then your range is pretty narrow and its easy for a thinking TAG to double barrell on any board T or higher and when you do play back hell know youve a set or a big draw most of the time and its just not profitable to be putting yourself in these difficult situations.

With all these things the variables involved are extremely important, how often he 4bets, what hes like post flop, your image etc can all turn a standard situation into a completely different one. IMO i should add

(I didn't wanna say "only AJ" in my previous post but Big Cards like AJ )

Yeha, thus 3betting with small pairs, is more a move to avoid troubles on the flop. It's almost a bluff no?
In case of a call, unless you flop a set, is there a flop texture to cbet with those 44, or I'm almost done.

About the 99 hand. I think this hand is more hard to play that 44 (considering the same logic) because you are somewhat in trouble against overcards on the flop and you can't really 3-bet for value or bluff preflop.

[morny]

Yeah small PP are basically 3bet bluffs for the most part but it also helps keep our range polarised and avoid -EV situations by just calling since 3betting is hugely profitable this should in most cases be more profitable against people who play well postflop however as i said against someone who calls too much small PP are not a great hand to 3bet with

Well you cant cbet if you call preflop so i presume you mean call a Cbet, if i do call ill fold to a cbet if the flop is wet because even if were ahead theres so much that can outdraw us, on a dry board it depends on the villain, if he double barrells a high amount (i wouldnt probably call preflop if he did) i might just call him down occassionaly but most time id give up, against someone who dosent double barell ill call the flop more often and look for a cheap showdown but as you can imagine these are all pretty awkward situations so id try andf avoid them

I used to try something where i would call in the blinds with hands like AT, KJ, QT and even AQ sometimes. I done this against some TAGs because i knew a thinking TAG would put me on s/c or PP if i just call and not 3bet so when they double barrell on a KQx on AJx board because they think i cant call down with my PP then i win a nice pot plsu then i can call with small PP and they wont know if i have a small PP or a KJ, AJ type hand. After reviewing my results it wasnt very profitable overall so i still think 3betting small pairs is better against good aggressive Tags and calling is throwing away money.

For 99 its higher variance as youll sometimes call a double barrell on Q8X board but since most TAGs double barrell with a wide range and steal with a wide range then its usually profitable but yeah its a difficult situation because as you said 3betting is turning it into a bluff although to be honest against some people it wouldnt be, for example say someone has a really wide opening range and a big 4bet range lets say 15% id be looking to 3bet/Push with 99 here so in this case you could 3bet for value but again i wouldnt be so keen to 3bet if he calls 3bets too often. I guess if your just 3betting with air,monsters and small PP your range is very transparent when you call so you have to mix it up a bit too if your playing someone thats likley to be taking notes

[Al1]

Originally Posted by morny

Yeah small PP are basically 3bet bluffs for the most part but it also helps keep our range polarised and avoid -EV situations by just calling since 3betting is hugely profitable this should in most cases be more profitable against people who play well postflop however as i said against someone who calls too much small PP are not a great hand to 3bet with

Well you cant cbet if you call preflop so i presume you mean call a Cbet, if i do call ill fold to a cbet if the flop is wet because even if were ahead theres so much that can outdraw us, on a dry board it depends on the villain, if he double barrells a high amount (i wouldnt probably call preflop if he did) i might just call him down occassionaly but most time id give up, against someone who dosent double barell ill call the flop more often and look for a cheap showdown but as you can imagine these are all pretty awkward situations so id try andf avoid them

I used to try something where i would call in the blinds with hands like AT, KJ, QT and even AQ sometimes. I done this against some TAGs because i knew a thinking TAG would put me on s/c or PP if i just call and not 3bet so when they double barrell on a KQx on AJx board because they think i cant call down with my PP then i win a nice pot plsu then i can call with small PP and they wont know if i have a small PP or a KJ, AJ type hand. After reviewing my results it wasnt very profitable overall so i still think 3betting small pairs is better against good aggressive Tags and calling is throwing away money.

For 99 its higher variance as youll sometimes call a double barrell on Q8X board but since most TAGs double barrell with a wide range and steal with a wide range then its usually profitable but yeah its a difficult situation because as you said 3betting is turning it into a bluff although to be honest against some people it wouldnt be, for example say someone has a really wide opening range and a big 4bet range lets say 15% id be looking to 3bet/Push with 99 here so in this case you could 3bet for value but again i wouldnt be so keen to 3bet if he calls 3bets too often. I guess if your just 3betting with air,monsters and small PP your range is very transparent when you call so you have to mix it up a bit too if your playing someone thats likley to be taking notes

Thx for this answere.

About that:

Well you cant cbet if you call preflop so i presume you mean call a Cbet

I was speaking about cbetting the flop in the case I 3bet and the stealer calls preflop.

[morny]

Sorry, i didnt read it in context with the line above that question so i see what you mean now. Id Cbet as much as i would cbet in a standard pot for the same reasons we cbet in a standard pot although im done if i get called in most cases.

There would be very few situations actually i wouldnt cbet if i got called, maybe if my image was bad and id been 3betting alot and he was getting sick of it and likely to call or raise my cbet alot or it was a TAG that dosent call 3bets often and the flop is AKx KQx type hands but other than that it will be pretty profitable to cbet here against standard TAGs especially if they dont fold to 3bets too much (i.e fold to 3bet = 60% or less)

[Al1]

Originally Posted by morny

Sorry, i didnt read it in context with the line above that question so i see what you mean now. Id Cbet as much as i would cbet in a standard pot for the same reasons we cbet in a standard pot although im done if i get called in most cases.

There would be very few situations actually i wouldnt cbet if i got called, maybe if my image was bad and id been 3betting alot and he was getting sick of it and likely to call or raise my cbet alot or it was a TAG that dosent call 3bets often and the flop is AKx KQx type hands but other than that it will be pretty profitable to cbet here against standard TAGs especially if they dont fold to 3bets too much (i.e fold to 3bet = 60% or less)

Hey thx!

I think you have to think about publishing an "Hold'em Manager Strategy Book", informations you give in your articles are awesome and I rarely have see so much infos concentrated like that. Furthermore, your infos are deep enough to be advanced concepts.

Great Job!

Al1

[morny]

Thanks Alain, i used to have too much time on my hands lol. Most of these things are discussed in all the up and coming pluggin leaks series but were releasing them 1 at a time as Roy is adding his own thoughts and also backing this up with reasearh of a huge database of imported hands so i look forward to discussing the future ones and to hearing more of your thoughts

[chopchoi]

Article 4 talked about how to adjust a players 3bet stats based on his position. I would like to know more about how to adjust a players raising range based on his position.

For example, if a player who is 22/17 raises from UTG, his range will be tighter than if he raises from MP. Also, a player stealing from the CO is likely to have a tighter range than when he steals from the button. But how much tighter? I'm also unsure how limpers affect a player's raising range.

[morny]

The easiset way is to check hes PFR for that position and then youll see the % hes raising