HEM causing slow/freezing tables on FTP

[shuman]

Hello. This is my first post. I have read as many threads as possible regarding this issue, but I am still having problems. It's been very frustrating.

I usually play up to 16 tables at $1/2 NLH full ring (9max) on Full Tilt. I'm wondering whether the problems I'm having have to do with HEM (I have version 1.09 beta 18a) or that my computer is too old for the new FTP updates. (When I close HEM, the slowness/freezing goes away now.) I've noticed that I get the LEAST slowness/freezing right after I manually vacuum my database. However, after the slowness begins it does NOT go away, and I can't play more than 9-10 tables. Even then, I occasionally time out on some hands. I also used to use Poker Tracker v2 before FTP's updates, so I don't know if HEM could be causing the problems.

Here is an example from today. After manually vacuuming my database, I was able to play 6-12 tables with little slowness with HEM auto importing. (I also had Internet Explorer open with 2 tabs.) However, after about 2 hours, there was a lot of slowness playing just one table (I played a total of 900 hands in 3 hours).

I am not a computer expert, so I will give you as much info that I think would be helpful. Sorry, but I don't know how to take a snapshot of the info.

My computer specs are:
Intel Pentium 4 CPU 3.00 GHz 3.01 GHz, 512 MB of RAM

hardrive:
Used space: 33.1 GB
Free space: 1.28 GB
Capacity: 34.4 GB

I also hit CTRL+ALT+DLT toward the end of my session while playing just one table with HEM auto importing. The Windows Task Manager screen on the Performance tab showed the following:

CPU usage: ~8%
PF usage: 967 MB (~3/4 bars full)

Totals
Handles: ~18428
Threads: 479
Processes: 49

Physical Memory (K)
Total: 522476
Available: ranged from 29,000-70,000
System Cache: ranged from 25,000-34,000

Commit Charge (K)
Total: ~1042948
Limit: 1277092
Peak: 1050560

Kernel Memory (K)
Total: ~38,200
Paged: ~24,600
Nonpaged: ~13,600

Processes: 49
Commit Charge: 1016 M/1247 M

My HEM database has a total of 1,285,504 hands stored in it, 117,196 of which are mine.

If you think the problem is the age of my computer, do you think taking it somewhere like Best Buy and having them clean up the hard drive would help? Or, would it be better to either upgrade to a faster processor, more RAM, and more hard drive space OR get a brand new computer?

Any advice would be very much appreciated.

Thank you.

[fozzy71]

Your computer is getting a bit outdated. The new FTP software makes better PC's than yours lag, even before they turn on HM.

Here are some performance improvements you can try - http://208.109.95.123/forum/showthre...ed=1#post62613

Personally I would suggest you get a new PC if you can manage it. A new 5 or $600 PC would be far ahead of your current PC in terms of overall performance.

[shuman]

Your computer is getting a bit outdated. The new FTP software makes better PC's than yours lag, even before they turn on HM.

Here are some performance improvements you can try - http://208.109.95.123/forum/showthre...ed=1#post62613

Personally I would suggest you get a new PC if you can manage it. A new 5 or $600 PC would be far ahead of your current PC in terms of overall performance.

Hello. Because of the lagging/freezing issues of my PC, I have been using my other computer, a Dell latitude laptop, (which has all the same specs as my PC listed above except the GHz are less=2.20 GHz, 1.18 GHz) for the past several weeks when playing on Full Tilt, but I am still having problems with HEM running in that my computer will freeze after about 2 hours when I try and open a new table. I then have to remove the power cord and battery pack and reboot.

So, I think I finally need to get a new computer so I don't have to worry about the freezing. I was thinking of building a PC on Dell.com. Could you please recommend what types of things I should look for in a new computer in order to get optimum performance when I play, but not too much stuff that isn't worth the extra money (ie: processor, RAM, video card, etc.)? Also, I would want the computer to be able to use 2 monitors at the same time, so what components would I need for that in the computer?

Also, I was wondering if the freezing could be a result of my internet connection or service. I wouldn't want to get a new computer and then have the same problems because of my internet. I currently use an ethernet cable, and my laptop has a 3Com 3C920 Integrated Fast Ethernet Controller and is connected at 100 Mbps. Would a wireless card and wireless router be slower or faster? Also, two other family members each use their computers in other rooms in the house via wireless cards and a wireless Linksys router. Would the internet run slower for me when they are using their computers?

Thank you.

[Patvs]

My computer specs are:
Intel Pentium 4 CPU 3.00 GHz 3.01 GHz, 512 MB of RAM

hardrive:
Used space: 33.1 GB
Free space: 1.28 GB
Capacity: 34.4 GB

After manually vacuuming my database, I was able to play 6-12 tables with little slowness with HEM auto importing. (I also had Internet Explorer open with 2 tabs.) However, after about 2 hours, there was a lot of slowness playing just one table.

You have sooo many problems. I would say your Intel P4 3.0 Ghz is not one of them. It's still fast enough. This problem above is caused bij the PostgreSQL database which uses more memory, the longer a session lasts. Only rebooting (or just closing HEM and stopping the HUD + IMPORT) will fix it. A short term solution (lasting only about 15 minutes) would be to close Internet Explorer. A better solution is to just add more memory to your system. (at least 2-3 GB) (another temporarily solution is to defrag your harddisk with Defraggler and try to keep at least 5+ GB free)

Your current system wants to use about 1 GB. It only has 512 MB available, so Windows creates a "pagefile": a virtual memory file on your harddisk. It uses an extra 512 MB of your harddisk to function as memory.
But actual RAM memory is really fast (with speeds of 3 GB/s), your harddisk is really slow with speeds of <50 MB/s. So the minute your computer needs to use the virtual memory (after playing for an hour or so) the system grinds to a halt.

Though simply adding 2 GB of RAM doesn't solve your problem. PostgreSQL also is very I/O intensive (it wants to read/write a lot of small files from/to your harddisk when importing hands / using the HUD) So even if you have 8 GB or RAM, it is still constantly using your harddisk. I'm guessing your 40 GB harddisk (3 years old?) can only read/write with sequential speeds of 40 MB/s. New harddisks can reach 90 MB/s. (and Solid State Disks [SSD] 200+ MB/s) (this is a simplification of harddisk speeds )

So your cheapest solution would be: add 2 GB of RAM for $40, and replace the harddisk with a 500+ GB new Western Digital Caviar BLACK, or Samsung Spinpoint F1 / F3 series for $60. Total upgrade costs $100.
Or buy a whole new computer for $500. (that would give you the same setup just with a better CPU, and better videocard, etc.)
(And eventually you'd want a SSD for your operation system/SQL database, but they're still quite expensive, $250 for a Intel X25-M G2 Postville)

[shuman]

Thanks a lot for the info Patvs. You sound dead on as to what's happening with my old computer(s).

So assuming a new computer would come with a harddisk that can reach a speed of 90 MB/s, would there be a noticeable difference in performance based on 2 GB of RAM versus 4, 6, or 8? Also, what about a Core 2 Duo Processor versus a Quad core?

I assume the videocard is for the monitor, so would I need to have 2 video cards installed in the new computer to be able to use 2 monitors at the same time?

Thank you.

[Patvs]

You're really in LUCK. This is THE best time to buy a new computer for 2 main reasons. Usually there is some really cool hardware technology just around the corner and it is recommended to wait 2-3 months. (and after 3 months there is something else to wait for) Right now everybody is waiting for 3 things: SATA3.0 (a.k.a. SATA "6"Gb/s speeds for harddisks), PCI-Express 3.0 (for faster videocards) and USB 3.0. And all three of them are postponed for at least 6-12 months. No new interesting technology will be released in the next 6 months! Only Windows 7 (but you can already get a free upgrade for that now when you buy a new computer)

Videocard: For 2 monitors you'll just need 1 videocard which has 2 "outputs": usually a card that has 2x DVI outputs. And many cards have that. (even $50 cards) The general rule is if your card has 3 outputs (for example 1 VGA +1 DVI +1 HDMI output) you can use 2 out of 3.
Note: if you want a 30 inch screen with a 2560x1600 resolution it needs one DUAL-LINK DVI output port. (which can be found on most new $50+ cards) The current best buys are any card with a ATI Radeon 46xx+, 47xx+ or 48xx+ chipset.

There will only be a difference in 3, 4 or 6 GB, if your system actually wants to use all 6+ GB and you have less memory. Your current system uses 1 GB so you need 1+ (=2 GB). Your new system will easily use 2 GB (since you will run more programs or play more tables/longer sessions) so it's savest to just put at least 3 GB in it. There also is no real performance difference between DDR2 and DDR3 memory. And the different CAS latencies (the timings of the memory: 4-4-4-20 vs 8-8-8-24, etc.) only can account for a 5% performance difference.

CPU: Same thing here as for the memory. You will not notice any significant performance increase in your daily computer use / internetting / Holdem Manager + poker whether you have a fast $80 Core 2 Duo, the slowest ($120) Intel quadcore or the fastest $999 i7 eXtreme. (unless you play a CPU intensive game which is optimized using multiple cores)

The bottleneck of the system will always remain the harddisk. On 2+2 there are a dozen topics of people that have a fast quadcore, 4+ GB RAM, some even have 2x VelociRaptors in RAID0 and they still are experiencing lag playing 12+ tables using HoldemManager because they have such a large database. Those people need a SSD.

[fozzy71]

.........Those people need multiple SSD's.

fyp

For my new PC this fall, I am planning on getting SSD for my OS, SSD for my SQL, and a Caviar Black for my data, graphics, and backups.

[shuman]

So Patvs, I looked on Dell.com at some of the different desktops, and I was wondering what you thought about a few things:

1) When building a computer, it doesn't say anything about the hard disk speed. So, if I call an operator and ask them if they can put a Solid State Disk in my new computer, do you think it would be worth the extra money right now? Or would I be better off waiting until the price comes down?

2) What's the difference between a SSD and a Caviar Black? Aren't they both hard disks? Fozzy's post confused me.

3) I've never used Microsoft Windows Vista, and I noticed on Dell.com that they offer 2 models of computers that you can build in which they will pre-install your version choice of Microsoft Windows XP and give you the Vista disk if you ever want to upgrade. Also, you get a free upgrade to Windows 7 when it's available. Just wondering if you think it would be worth a little extra money (I'm assuming) to get the Windows XP instead of just Vista? I've heard some people don't like Vista and/or have problems.

4) I currently play on Full Tilt. Do you know if I would NOT have the lagging/frezzing issues if I played on PokerStars? Maybe their software would be more compatible and less processor/RAM intenstive on my current computer.

Thank you.

[Patvs]

1) When building a computer, it doesn't say anything about the hard disk speed. So, if I call an operator and ask them if they can put a Solid State Disk in my new computer, do you think it would be worth the extra money right now? Or would I be better off waiting until the price comes down?

The whole regular 7200 RPM harddisk vs SSD is a difficult balance between the need for SPACE (GB), SPEED and COSTS ($). The price for SSDs will drop with 50% every year. For the same $ amount this year, you'll get double the space of GB next year. But do you really NEED double the space in GB?

Or you can get double the SPEED next year. The current SSDs are limited to speeds up to 300 MB/s (due to the limitations of the SATA-2 ports). Likewise most external harddisks are limited by the speed of USB2.0. SATA-3 will be released in 12 months and will bring SSDs that are twice as fast as the current generation.

Fusion-iO ioDrives ALREADY use PCI-Express 2.0 ports and are 5x as fast as a SSD. (and 10x times more expensive than a SSD) In 24 months, there will be Fusion-iO drives that use PCI-E 3.0. (the smallest ioDrive costs $1500 now) If they would cost $350 in 24 months, we would probably have the SSD vs ioDrive discussion in two years. (conclusion: buy the fastest you can afford now... or you'll wait FOREVER)

2) What's the difference between a SSD and a Caviar Black? Aren't they both hard disks? Fozzy's post confused me.

Some of the latest 7200 RPM harddisks are really fast: they are the Western Digital Caviar Black, Samsung Spinpoint F1 and Samsung Spinpoint F3. All of them are ALMOST as fast as a VelociRaptor. (note: even the eco 5400 RPM Samsung Spinpoint F2 approaches this speed)

A SSD harddisk, is like a big USB memory stick. It has no moving parts. It uses less power, it creates less heat, and they're indestructible.
Speed-wise the Caviar Black is actually slightly faster with sequential WRITE speeds. A SSD is faster with sequential READ speeds. And a SSD is 10x faster with 4K read and write speeds. (reading/writing tiny 4kb size files)

3) I've never used Microsoft Windows Vista, and I noticed on Dell.com that they offer 2 models of computers that you can build in which they will pre-install your version choice of Microsoft Windows XP and give you the Vista disk if you ever want to upgrade. Also, you get a free upgrade to Windows 7 when it's available. Just wondering if you think it would be worth a little extra money (I'm assuming) to get the Windows XP instead of just Vista? I've heard some people don't like Vista and/or have problems.

VISTA sucks. XP is solid.... but just get the free upgrade to Windows 7. Win7 is really good.

4) I currently play on Full Tilt. Do you know if I would NOT have the lagging/frezzing issues if I played on PokerStars? Maybe their software would be more compatible and less processor/RAM intenstive on my current computer.

The new Full Tilt software (I play on FT) does use a lot of system resources (RAM). Which is funny because they claim their new software was completely re-written to accommodate slower computers.

I sent FT an email "praising them for their great new software" and I asked them "now that they have created software with no lag, which doesn't use ANY system resources, surely now I am allowed to have my table limit increased from 16 to playing 24 tables simultaneously."

They replied:

Unfortunately, we are unable to increase these limits further.

PokerStars can fix some problems for you since it won't crash on you or have connection problems. But the most lag/freezing is caused by the combination of using HEM + playing multiple tables + having a slow harddisk/not enough RAM + PostgreSQL. And I actually have faith in Full Tilt they will solve all of their problems in future software updates.

Edit: Anandtech wrote a final great article about SSDs here

[shuman]

The new Full Tilt software (I play on FT) does use a lot of system resources (RAM). Which is funny because they claim their new software was completely re-written to accommodate slower computers.

I sent FT an email "praising them for their great new software" and I asked them "now that they have created software with no lag, which doesn't use ANY system resources, surely now I am allowed to have my table limit increased from 16 to playing 24 tables simultaneously."

They replied:

Quote:
Unfortunately, we are unable to increase these limits further.

Hilarious stuff Patvs! It's funny how when they upgraded their software I could barely play 1 table because my computer was so slow. Fantastic for older computers

I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions and give me such great info. I don't know much about computers, so a lot of the stuff you are telling me is new to me. It really helps me out a lot.

The whole regular 7200 RPM harddisk vs SSD is a difficult balance between the need for SPACE (GB), SPEED and COSTS ($). The price for SSDs will drop with 50% every year. For the same $ amount this year, you'll get double the space of GB next year. But do you really NEED double the space in GB?

Or you can get double the SPEED next year. The current SSDs are limited to speeds up to 300 MB/s (due to the limitations of the SATA-2 ports). Likewise most external harddisks are limited by the speed of USB2.0. SATA-3 will be released in 12 months and will bring SSDs that are twice as fast as the current generation.

Ok, so I was thinking that I would be better off getting a SSD now, but I'm not sure how many I would need (1,2?). I would rather have the speed than the extra space. I think I could always get an external hard drive if I needed extra space. I just don't want to deal with any lagging/freezing anymore. It's terrible.

So, like Fozzy said before:

For my new PC this fall, I am planning on getting SSD for my OS, SSD for my SQL, and a Caviar Black for my data, graphics, and backups.

Does that mean it's good to get 2 SSD's and 1 7200 RPM harddisk? It seems to me that 3 hard hard disks in one computer would be pretty expensive, and maybe for me, unnecessary. I just started playing pretty regularly a few months ago, and I've calculated that I could probably play at MOST anywhere from 1-2 million hands in year (5000-6000 hands per day) on Full Tilt if I played consistently all that time. So, i'm not sure how many or how much harddisk components I would need.

As for the video card recommendations you gave me in a previous post:

The current best buys are any card with a ATI Radeon 46xx+, 47xx+ or 48xx+ chipset.

Do you think anything below a ATI Radeon 46xx+ is not good enough? Some of the Dell options only allow an upgrade to a ATI Radeon 4350. I'm not sure how much of an impact that would make on performance if I went with the 43

With all these different components, maybe I should have my friend, a computer engineer, build me a desktop instead of going through Dell. I thought it would be less expensive through Dell, but when I price it out on the website it always comes out to at least $800/900. He built the last desktop I got like 5 years ago. Problem with Dell somtimes is that they won't allow you to upgrade certain components on certain computer models (ie: RAM, video card, hard disk, etc.)

If I haven't tired you out yet with all my questions, I would still really appreciate it if you could reply when you have time.

Thank a lot.